Gitte: Chief Operating Officer (COO), General Counsel, Degrees in Law in Germany

Gitte has worked across a wide variety of industries in multiple countries around the world.  Listening to her story, you will hear about someone who strives to push herself to try new things and accept new challenges, often in a new country!  As a young person, Gitte experienced watching the fall of the Berlin wall in her home country of Germany. That experience, as well as watching her own father’s enjoyable legal career, led her to want to pursue an education in law.  Gitte’s experience is incredibly varied through each of her professional experiences, and yet all of the threads weave well together in her story to lead her to where she is today.  I have no doubt she has more exciting adventures ahead, too!  Don't miss her story and the lessons she has learned along her path.

Transcript

0:02

Thank you for joining us today on Paths in Progress. I'm your host, Carrie Young. On this podcast, people in a variety of career fields, talk about their journey from choosing their college, deciding which majors and minors to pursue, their first jobs out of college, and all of the hurdles, detours and victories along their path through today. Our goal is to help students hear about a variety of exciting opportunities out there and understand what day-to-day life is like in these careers. I hope you enjoy and learn from our story today. Thanks for listening.

Carrie: 0:33

Hi everyone. Thanks for joining us today. We are here today with Gitte. She is a COO, a Chief Operating Officer, and she has also been a general counsel. All of her degrees are in law, both at the bachelor's and master's level. And she is going to explain to us how that worked because she did her education outside of the United States and the law education is a lot different where she got her education. So Gitte, thanks so much for joining us today.

Gitte: 1:03

Thanks Carrie, for having me. It's a pleasure.

Carrie: 1:07

I'm so glad to have you. I'm really interested to hear about your story. First of all, I guess before we get started with your journey chronologically, can you go ahead and explain to us, how your education worked in law and where you received that education and kind of what the process was for you?

Gitte: 1:24

Absolutely. So Kathy, as your listeners can probably hear, I am from Germany. I have this heavy German accent, and this is also where I got my education in law. And how it works in Germany is that you go to university for a couple of years where you do all the theoretical stuff. You take your exams in the different fields of law, but then you only qualify for the first state exam. And this has a limited exposure. So you can't be admitted to the bar with just the first state exam. To be admitted to the bar, you need a second state exam. And this second state exam consists of roughly two years of practical education. Again in all fields of law. You are working with the prosecutor's office, you are working with the court, you're working in the administration, you are working in private practice, and at the end you take a second state exam and only when you pass that one you are fully qualified lawyer according to Germany

Carrie: 2:25

Okay. So I'm sure we'll get into some details about that on your own journey as we go through your story. Can you take us back to your teenage years when you were in school, before you pursued university work, and just kind of tell us what you were thinking about at the beginning of that journey, and you know, why you pursued the track you pursued and what made you interested in that in the first place?

Gitte: 2:49

I think there are two things that got me to decide to study law. And one is my father's a lawyer himself and, he used to be in companies. So he was an in-house counsel and he loved his work. So he came home enlightened, told stories. He just loved being a lawyer, as an in-house. And so I grew up with that spirit of being a lawyer is a great thing. Mm-hmm. And then there is a second piece, and this is, I was brought up in Eastern Germany. I was about 13 years old when the wall came down. And obviously this was a very moving experience. And when you are going through these life changing experiences and you learn bit by bit about the injustice of the system you've been brought up in and, you know, people that have suffered from injustice, I think it kind of like triggers something in you, that makes you want to, or at least it was for me that I wanted to do something good. I wanted to do justice, I wanted to help people, as funny as it sounds, and I think it's a good motivation. So these two things were really, it's my dad always being excited about his work and, um, the experience I went through with being brought up in Eastern Germany and learning about the injustice after the war came down.

Carrie: 4:05

Wow. Well, I know we have some younger students listening. I remember when the wall came down, but, perhaps people that are listening may not have been born yet or don't have a memory of it, so I would highly suggest, looking into that just so you can get some context around what gets us talking about. But I do believe that a lot of students in the United States right now understand, wanting to fight injustice and seeing things happening around them that perhaps inspire them to want to work in this field. I was just reading, I think yesterday that law school applications are kind of at a record high right now in the United States, which is not surprising given everything that's going on. So, I think students can at least relate to that if they don't know about the particular event you're referring to, at least, hopefully that, that feeling they can relate to that right now for sure.

Gitte: 4:59

Yeah, I see. I strongly believe when you choose your studies, obviously you are looking into kind of like what your parents do, what your surroundings do, you're looking at role models you're tied to. But I strongly believe when you're thinking about making the decision, ultimately don't just look at the economics and don't just look what people tell you, but listen to your instincts. Mm-hmm. That's probably really the best advice that I can give for somebody who needs to make the choice. And I mean, now the world is much bigger and the opportunities and are much broader. And obviously every year the professional landscape changes, with new technologies, digitalization, and everything coming up. So I think you are your best guardian and, yeah, North Star to take this decision.

Carrie: 5:45

Absolutely. So when you were deciding where to attend school, I know things are a lot different now in general than they were when we were in school. Things have gotten just very intense and competitive and, lots of layers and planning ahead and everything. But what was your experience like, applying to university and deciding where you wanted to attend?

Gitte: 6:09

Well, law is one of the studies, that in Germany you can't just study it by applying to university, you need certain scores at school. So it was pretty similar to what I think is happening these days, that you have to work hard to obtain the choice. And I worked hard. I was lucky enough to be able to apply to literally every university I wanted to go to. And ultimately my choice, I applied to a couple of universities, but my choice went to university that was offering a dual study, which was combining law and economics. So I thought it's probably not a bad thing to understand bits and pieces of economics, when you're a lawyer, because I always believe that the laws, the legislation, whatever it is, it's just your toolkit. But what you make out of it is to understand the impact you're having. And obviously I was inspired by my dad, so I wanted to look into an in-house career, and that was, that was it. So I had the choice. I was really lucky, but also benefited from studying hard, to apply where I wanna go.

Carrie: 7:16

Yeah. So as you were going through school, were there any particular courses that you took or any particular, like internships or experiences that you had that you felt had a strong impact on you personally or perhaps had a large impact on you, like making decisions about what you felt like you wanted to do in the future?

Gitte: 7:40

Mm, not so much because I have to admit, I was pretty disappointed when I started to study law. You look, you're coming in there and you think like, Hey, I wanna improve the world. I wanna have an impact. I wanna fight injustice. I wanna become this happy lawyer as my dad was at that point. And, then all the theory is hitting you. Hmm. And it has nothing to do, at least in Germany, with the reality or what you think law should be about. It's pure theory and it, feels like, yeah, something you will never, ever be able to connect to. So I struggled quite a bit. I had some great practical experiences. I worked as at Baker McKenzie. I worked at different law firms. I worked for one of the scholars at the university, in public law, which was very interesting. So I deep dived into constitutional law. So I did a lot of things, but I felt like this is totally disconnected from what I wanted to do, and I just pushed through to, to get my exam. I speeded through the, through university because I felt, well, look, there must be something different. I was considering to change studies like one year in.

Carrie: 8:55

Oh, wow. I think a lot of students can relate to having to, especially taking a lot of foundational courses or a lot of theory courses or a lot of even perhaps historical courses and whatever field you're studying. I know over the years, I've talked to a lot of students, you know, they've been frustrated with the class and said something like, am I ever gonna actually need this? Like, am I ever going to use this part? Or do I just have to memorize it now for these exams and then I'll never use it again? You know? So I think that's definitely a common sentiment with students across a lot of programs for sure.

Gitte: 9:32

And I don't wanna sound paternal, but in hindsight I would answer this question yes. You don't need a lot of it, but you need everything.

Carrie: 9:41

Right, right. Yeah.

Gitte: 9:42

It's kind of like, see, what I only found out later on is that you're doing all this to be trained in a certain way of thinking, in a certain way of approaching problems. When you are great in your job, and I think this applies to lawyers, engineers, whatever. It's not that you have exactly the answer, but you have a structure to figure out what the problem is and how to best solve it. So I would say yes, what you memorize, you probably don't need 90% of it ever again. But by doing it over and over and over again in a very similar structure, trains you to approach whatever is thrown at your way in your professional life. But I only learned this far into my professional career where I had this aha moment and say, aha, this is why I did that. Now I get it. But there are areas you can completely ignore.

Carrie: 10:36

Yeah. Well, and it contributes to your overall like comprehensive understanding, right? And everything that you're putting together that will help you, like you said, help you to think a certain way and help you form your thoughts later that you may not even realize where some of it's coming from, you know? But it's coming from a lot of those foundational things that you had to learn. But yes, of course, we've all had classes where we've learned the things and never thought about them again. Sure. I think that happens to everyone in some kind of context. For sure. So as I know you said you were a little discouraged as you were going through it, was there something in particular that just kept you going? Was that like the initial idea of watching your dad and wanting to like make your impact on the world and you just thought, okay, I just have to get through this. Is that kind of what kept you going?

Gitte: 11:23

I think in a way yes. And obviously when you're studying law, at least in Germany, I don't know about the US that much, but, at least in Germany, everyone tells you you can do with a lost, studying law allows you to do whatever you want. Yeah. So I felt like, okay, even if that is not my profession, I get the foundation, I get the academic credits, and I can still take a decision. And that certainly contributed to my eagerness to finish university, the fastest possible time.

Carrie: 11:52

Okay. And I know in the United States Law school has the reputation of, you know, you basically barely sleep for a few years because you're cramming so much information into your head and you can't have very much of a social life or family life outside of that. It's very difficult. So is that kind of a similar experience in Germany or is that what you experienced?

Gitte: 12:15

It depends. There are times of high intensity. Mm-hmm. Uh, but what I think is also a big different university and Carrie, I'm not brought up in the US so I might make a mistake assuming that a university in the US is pretty expensive. In Germany it's for free. Obviously you have to support your cost of living, but you're not paying anything for your education. Yeah. At least at the public universities. That has changed a little bit. There are private universities now, but, you can study literally for free as long as you support your living. That's not easy. That's not easy, especially when you're studying, having studies where you have to work 24 7 and you can't just kind of like do a side job or whatsoever. So, it's different in Germany. So I think work life balance is certainly a bit better in Germany. And I was able to work, I worked at the university for a scholar. I worked at an Italian restaurant. I was supported by my parents, but that was far too little. So, I worked beside and I still managed to do my studies. And it's also kind of like with law in Germany you have periods of intensity. Yeah. Where you just spending your hours at the library where you're studying for your exam and then you have downtime. Yeah. Where you do your practical experiences, which comes usually with a little less work. I think it's very different to the US.

Carrie: 13:40

Yeah. I almost wanna take a pause for everyone who just had a heart attack that you had a free education.

Gitte: 13:46

I can imagine. I can imagine. It was a great education and I mean, shouldn't it be that way, for everyone? Mm-hmm. But that's probably, yeah. Very, very lengthy discussion and Oh, yeah. What I learned, I was doing a Harvard Business School, class two years ago. And what I noticed is obviously this is extremely expensive, but it also holds everyone who's teaching you and holds the entire university accountable to give you top education, to be deductible, at the state of the art. The facility is amazing. So I felt maybe there is a balance in between because what you quite often find in Germany is there's no encouragement. Yeah. Because scholars or, professors, teachers are paid by the state. You're not contributing. So I felt there's probably something also to the piece of paying for it. So I mean, this is how we all work. We only give something value. We pay for, unfortunately, but it should be in between. It should be equal access to opportunities no matter what your economic background. Right?

Carrie: 14:54

Yeah, absolutely. That's a really good point that the universities in the United States really do have an obligation to customer service and providing a product'cause it's a competitive market, right? To get students Absolutely to come to your university and to get that enrollment. So that is true. And I, another big topic in the United States is student loan debt. You know, a lot of students graduate with a significant amount of debt because they've taken out loans for their education. So that's a whole nother topic, but it is good for students to just hear about different experiences around the world.'cause I I also know students in the United States who've applied to college in other countries, just because, you know, the system's a lot different and they prefer to do that somewhere else. So it's really interesting to learn about how that's different in other countries. Mm-hmm. So you mentioned that you take your initial exam and then you have more education and you take another exam. So can you tell us a little bit about how your exam experience was and then you talked about the experience of like working with judges and you had more like practical professional experience in there as well. Can you kind of walk us through how your experience was going through that process to eventually become an attorney or general counsel?

Gitte: 16:05

Yes. Yes, I can do that. So with the exam, I passed the first time I took it, but being so fast in my studies, I had a chance to redo it. And I was taking this chance because I was not satisfied with my grades. And that was a quite interesting experience because for the first exam or when I wrote it for the first time, I put myself under so much stress. I was studying so hard, I was memorizing so many things. I was drafting case studies over and over again. So for a full year, I was just deep diving into theory. And then the exam came and I passed, but I wasn't happy. And for the second time, I did it entirely differently. And I spoke to my dad and he said, look, Gitte you can study everything over and over again, but you need to trust yourself. You need to trust. And there we go in the structure, what they told you think when you are writing an exam and don't just repeat what you might have memorized.

Carrie: 17:03

Yes. So, yeah.

Gitte: 17:04

So I went in there with a different mindset and it turned out to be much, much better because I wasn't seeing it as just downloading everything I've learned, but just kind of like, okay, there is something I have to crack. There is a task, and obviously that's different for every type of study. But for law and in Germany for my type of study, it worked much better for me to just say, see the problem and not which page it was written in a right.

Carrie: 17:34

Yeah, that's a really good point to make for students to think about across a lot of disciplines, right? To trust what you've learned and how you interpret that, and how you can answer questions and solve problems, you know, not just with the memorization and regurgitating the information, but you know, trust your brain to think through what you've learned and how to apply it, and then how to answer the question. I think sometimes, sadly, we lose that, right? Mm-hmm. Even though that's the point, isn't it?

Gitte: 18:02

To all this learning and memorizing. You wanna have the opportunity to show what you did, and then it doesn't come and you're trying to squeeze it in and it's like, oh, maybe this point and that point and that point. And that's another thing. I think what I've just learned later on, and in hindsight, what I would've liked to know is: simplicity is key. Mm. Don't overcomplicate things. Don't try to squeeze another topic in there just to show that you've been a good student. Make it simple and very straightforward. Mm. Yeah. But it's hard when you have all these things in your head. You worked hard for it, and then nobody wants to hear about them.

Carrie: 18:41

Yeah. Well, and those exams are so important for your future, right? So much of your future rides on that, whether you pass it or not. So I think that just that amount of pressure, it can also just impact your thinking, right? I mean, how can you, it's really hard to just sit back and take a deep breath and clear your mind when all that pressure is riding on it.

Gitte: 19:02

Yeah. And I mean, you don't have a professional track record. It's easy for me to say this now. Reflecting on a 20 year long career and different professions. You can be confident. I mean, you obviously made it to school pretty well. You made it to university, you made it to your final exam. So I, I wish, despite the lack of professional experience that everyone finds the confidence that they are exactly where they belong and they all succeed.

Carrie: 19:30

Yeah. Yeah. That's a great thing for students to keep in mind. Absolutely. So after your exam, after you took it the second time, I'm assuming you were happier with your score?

Gitte: 19:40

Absolutely. I was much happier. It feel much, felt much lighter. Then I started to choose the city where I would like to do my second state exam. So that's independent from the state where the university, where you take your first state exam is situated or located. So you have the free choice. It only comes with one downside and that you might have a waiting period if you change the state in Germany. And I fell in love with Berlin after my first state exam, and I desperately wanted to go to Berlin, wanted to live in Berlin. So that was 2000 and Berlin was just the most magic city in the world. Lots of underground culture, politics. I mean, there was 10 years after the wall came down, so we spoke about the reunification between eastern and Western Germany. So, and I desperately wanted to go into this city and, my parents say, yep, but you are on your own now. So, while waiting to start my practical education, I was starting to work at a law office at a law firm. And this is where the fund actually started in full transparency, because I was involved in a very specific field of law even before my second state exam. And these were restitution laws. So we spoke a little bit about this Eastern, Western German. Deviation. And obviously when you unified two states and one state, Eastern Germany has been a dictatorship. Western Germany was not. You have to reorganize a lot of laws and legislation that has been imposed in a dictatorship and amongst those kind of like, the deviation of property, of equity. And that goes back into the Nazi times. So Germany has a very unfortunate history as we all know, where a lot of discrimination happened towards all kind of people, which got went hand in hand with taking away their property because owning property is a deeply rooted expression of freedom. Yeah. When you wanna take freedom from people. You take their speech away, you take their property away. So that happens throughout the times. Not only in na time, it also happened in the eastern German dictatorship. And so I was busy with revising this injustice. So, this is what I did before I started my practical education. And while I did my practical education, it's very common that in Germany, when you do your practical education, you actually start working already in private practice if you have the chance.

Carrie: 22:13

Oh wow. So when you're working in private practice, during your practical education, are you limited to what you can do because you haven't completed that? Yeah. What are you doing compared to what you would be doing if you were already, you know, licensed to be in that field?

Gitte: 22:29

Yeah, you are below an associate because you're not allowed to represent any clients in front of a court, for example. That's one thing. Right. And obviously you haven't learned like how to draft properly, et cetera. You are trained, you're like a trainee. You're supporting with a lot of research. You are doing a lot of field work. You're starting to draft certain pieces of applications to court when it comes to summarizing what happened, what didn't happen. But you are like a researcher more, I would say in hindsight, and then dependent on the law of review, a dependent on the lawyer that works with you, you might get more or less. Exposure you might be invited to join meetings with clients to join in front of a court. And I was very lucky that that happened to me. So I got a very broad exposure. But yeah, it's mostly research work that you're doing.

Carrie: 23:18

Okay. And then what types of things were you doing during your practical education and where were you doing them?

Gitte: 23:24

I was just trying to memorize that to be honest. So there are certain areas that you have to do that are mandatory. So for example, you have to work with the prosecutor's office and you have to run prosecutions yourself. Which I found at the time being very uncomfortable because I was just fresh from university. Of course, you learn a lot about criminal law, a lot about defense and all that. But, I felt like, look, I'm acting on behalf of the state here and I'm convicting people for minor crimes, obviously are not involved in murder cases, but for crimes, and I felt so uncomfortable doing this because I didn't feel I'm just in a position or experienced enough to really, to be there. But, hey, this is part of your education and in hindsight you are obliged to do it, to get to know all theater of law to make a decent decision. Then I was with the court. I think that was mostly real estate. So not the most exciting stuff, but you do this because the epitome of the education. So the entire legal studies that my time were meant to lead you to becoming a judge. Not that everyone is ultimately becoming a judge because. The places are limited, but this is how they educated you at the time being. So I did that. I found this rather boring, no offense, and then the most interesting was probably private practice. I did that with the law firm I was working with. But I also did this with another law firm who was specialized in the laws of sports, media and entertainment. Yeah. So that was super interesting because obviously there is a little bit, you have this, at least in Germany, you have some stars and artists, sports people you deal with. Like, so I was working on a case, representing, two box stars at the time being, and this whole law firm was full of art because they are, senior partner is a big art collector, a very well known figure in the Berlin scene. So it came with a different exposure despite the hard work and the high quality work. But it was just around this kind of like, you felt like, wow, this is pretty interesting stuff. So I got a bit hooked by the glam. Yeah, well that was a lot of fun. And I got a brilliant education. I was working mostly in media law. So despite the fun and the exposure, it was really brilliant education. And then I did, the most fun piece was the administration you need to do, because you can do this, whatever. Is run by the German government, and that opens you up to a broad range of topic. You can obviously go into a classic like tax office or whatsoever, but I was doing this at an opera house because there are state owned in Germany. Yeah. So, I was working for an opera house and looking behind the scenes there, I probably didn't have too much legal exposure, but it was very interesting. So that was super interesting. And I think this is where I, in hindsight, set a little bit the stage for my current career being a chief operating officer, I. Because I learned that, obviously, opera House of Theaters, like in all countries, but specifically like in a system like Germany, when it's state finance, they're always running out of money. Hmm. And we don't have what I see in the US a lot of private engagement. It is really the task of the state, slowly changing, but at the time being, it was considered a fundamental task of the state to provide for the arts, to provide access to opera, theater, cinema, movies. So that's deeply rooted. We have less of a private engagement in that field. And so I got hooked to understand, well, why isn't this working too well? Because obviously great opera houses, they are hopefully sold out. Ticket prices are decent, but you get paid. So why aren't they run economically? So what is it, what is limiting the success of an organization?

Carrie: 27:29

Hmm. That's so interesting that you say that'cause I think a lot of American opera houses in the opera community wished that the government would fund the arts. Mm-hmm.

Gitte: 27:39

Yeah. And we would wish a kind of in Germany we see more and more restrictions, in terms of investments in this field. Mm-hmm. So we wish we had a little bit more of a structure as we see it in America where obviously also from a social aspect mm-hmm. This kind of like commitment and engagement is appreciated, but it's also supported by the right laws and legislation. Yeah. So it's an entirely different way of operating in this field.

Carrie: 28:06

Yeah. That's so interesting. So after your practical education, did you say you had to take another exam then?

Gitte: 28:14

Yes, I had another exam. Very similar to the first one. You're drafting a couple of case studies, five hours to solve the case. That's the written exam. And then you have a verbal exam where defending literally kind of like you get a full file and you're defending the file. Oh, I only did this once. I didn't repeat that. That's good enough. I felt like, okay, I'm done here.

Carrie: 28:40

So I know in the United States, when students are passing their bar exam, there's a kind of an extra stress on top of that to find a job. And some people, you know, are securing that prior to the exam on the condition that they passed the exam, and then some of them are doing that after the fact. So how did that work for you, and was there something in particular that you were really seeking out at that time? Or had any of your ideas changed about what you wanted to do, with the education that you'd received? Did anything kind of spark your interest in a different way than it had before?

Gitte: 29:14

Look, it was pretty interesting because after all these years of studying, and I think it was about six or eight in total. It's a long study in Germany, even when you are fast. I just felt like I had no idea what I wanted to do with it. So there was kind of like this constant pressure of learning and there was always kind of like, you do one exam, then you prepare for the next one. And I fell a little bit into a hole, so I just, I just didn't know what to do and I felt like I need a break, I need a long break. And it was very much to the surprise of my family who felt like, well, now you're qualified, so why aren't you more excited? And I was just like, I'm so tired after all these years. And actually I liked a lot of things, but nothing really deeply hooked me. And so I decided to take a bit of time off, to start my PhD. To deep dive a little bit more into the economics of an opera house. So I was spending my time researching, what drives an organization? How do you, get people incentivized to contribute to your creating specifically when they're paid by the government, where you don't have this incentivization, quite often that comes with private economy. And I apologize to everyone who's working at the government. I'm terribly drawing conclusions here. So I was looking into that. I was looking into tax laws, I was looking into corporate laws, so what's the right corporate structure? So I kept myself busy for a year, and then I was running out of funds and I got headhunted into my first role. So I never finished the PhD. In hindsight, I needed a break. I needed to kind of like reset a little bit. And, as I said, in hindsight, this is when I swear I set the stage to eventually move into a business role.

Carrie: 31:03

Yeah. Well, good for you for taking the break when you knew you needed it.'cause I think it's a hard thing for people to do. Even I think sometimes our gut is telling us that we should really do something in particular and we just shove it away and keep going forward without listening to that. Right?

Gitte: 31:18

I was working for the law firm, but I couldn't commit to stay with the law firm or I couldn't commit to go into an institution. I mean, I would've loved to stay with the opera house, but, the roles were limited there. So, I was working, but, I didn't commit.

Carrie: 31:34

Yeah. Okay. So when you said you were headhunted into kind of your first job, what was that experience like for you?

Gitte: 31:42

Very satisfying, obviously, that someone gives you a call and says, Hey, we want you because we think you're great for the job. Yeah. Like, oh, that's interesting.

Carrie: 31:53

So what job was it?

Gitte: 31:54

So that's a funny thing because I started my career in waste management. I. So I became Oh, really? Became, uh, yeah, I became the head of legal of a small company, that was primarily looking into recycling of packaging material, reusables, et cetera. There was a big, big thing in Germany at the time being, a lot of regulation popped up there. So a lot of companies were founded to benefit from this regulation and offer this type of services. And I became their head of legal immediately, which is also not too bad when you're coming out of university. I mean, I was pretty much a one woman show. But what was really exciting about this role is that, as a lawyer in highly regulated industries like waste management, finance, et cetera, you are always very close to the business because you are helping them to craft their products and services. Yeah. Yeah. There is no way that this can be done without lawyers. So, you're not just a support function or a shared service. You're act actively contributing to the service and product offering of the company. And that was very, very interesting in this role.

Carrie: 33:01

So going through that role, I mean, when we're talking about reusables and recycling and everything, not just at that time, but now too, of course, that has some bigger meaning, right. To make an impact in your community. So did you feel like that was meaningful work for you?

Gitte: 33:17

That's an interesting question. I think I saw it more from the business side. And I had this in a couple of my roles on when you're working in industries that should excite you, like music, entertainment. Whenever I started a job, I saw the job more than the industry and the impact I could have, so I think for me it was my first role. It was just about learning everything, understanding the industry. So I don't think I had much time to think about the impact. Yeah. And the system is not without flaws. Yeah. So you also see that when you're working behind the scenes.

Carrie: 33:54

Yeah. Could you talk a little bit about just. I in general with, getting your first job in an industry after you've completed your education, and really this can apply to any field, but mm-hmm. I think there's a lot of pressure on students when they're trying to land that first job. There's just a lot of pressure for it to be an amazing job and to be something that they really would love. There's all of this expectation, that you've gone through all of this education, that you've done all this hard work and like, what is the job gonna be? So, can you talk a little bit about what your experience was, but also just your perspective now that you've had a career, looking back on that first job, maybe some encouragement to students that, you know, that doesn't have to be your dream job. Mm-hmm. Like maybe, what are some of the benefits or how you can kind of approach thinking about that first job in your industry out of school?

Gitte: 34:51

Yeah, that's a very good question. I think, already for me, when I accepted the job, which was not in Berlin, and I loved Berlin, so I wanted to stay there. So it already came with a downside. And so for me it was very clear that this is a starting point. Yeah. Which I would do for a couple of years, but not for the rest of my life. And what I've learned throughout my career is look at the opportunity from the here and now. So when you don't think about it, okay, what happens in five years? What happens in 10 years, right? Do I need to spend my entire career in waste management? In my case, I never thought this way, and that was probably also right. And this is how I approached kind of like all of my professional experiences. And I've gone through quite few and quite various ones. Don't think about the future too much like, the far future. You don't know what is happening in five years. Yeah. You don't know what is happening in 10 years. There is your private life that might pull you in different directions. There are the macro economics, the micro economics. There are so many factors you can't influence. So think about what the job provides you in terms of the here and now. And sometimes it's also absolutely right to take a job because you need to earn your living. This is a very fair reason. And that's probably the toughest thing when I'm recalling, coming out of all this education, you wanna have an impact. You really have a mind, kind of like the broader benefits that your job should provide you. But ultimately we all need to make a living. So it's perfectly fine to start off from that point of view. You shouldn't do something that you despise, you shouldn't do anything that is not aligned with your values, but it's not a bad thing to start and wanting to earn money.

Carrie: 36:45

Yeah, absolutely. I really appreciate what you said about, of course you wanna think about if the job you're taking is beneficial for you, in that moment and is a good step. It's great to have goals and it's great to try to think about wise decisions for your future, but we just don't, we don't know. Mm-hmm. Exactly. And there's just no way to predict that. And there's, even if you planned it out. Exactly. You know, to the week of every step you're gonna take. I mean, I think pretty much all working adults will tell you, it never goes exactly the way that you're trying to plan it to go, or it never goes exactly the way that you think it will go. And a lot of times it's for the better. Right? I don't mean to say that in a negative way. Mm-hmm. Sometimes it's like, thank goodness that didn't go the way I planned it.'cause this is so much better. But, I really like the way that you phrased that.

Gitte: 37:35

And look, ultimately, every job comes with a learning opportunity. You will go out of every job richer than you enter the job. Hopefully these are only great experiences and you find mentors and coaches and you continue to grow. But even from not so great experiences, you will learn. They will form you as a professional, maybe as a person as well. But I've never hold a job where I didn't have a learning. Yeah, that supported me and helped me to take the next step in my career.

Carrie: 38:09

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And really, even if you're in the midst of a negative experience, you can still take something from that, right? You can still learn something about, you know, this is not how I will handle things correct on my next step.

Gitte: 38:23

I'm not going to make that mistake again. Yes. So all that feeds into your, I would say, personal professional account. So I think there is no wrong decision. Look at what the job is providing you at the moment. You have to take the decision, and then go for it. Yeah.

Carrie: 38:42

So after that first job, how did you transition into something else? Were you headhunted out again or were you getting to a point where you wanted something new?

Gitte: 38:51

So out of this first job, there was a little step in between because I was promoted out of the legal role into my first business role. And as I explained, waste management is a highly regulated industry, so there is a need for lawyers to move into business roles. And the company I started with got acquired by a much larger global energy and waste management company at the time being there we go on kind of like taking the job, not overthinking it, but yeah. Opportunities will come along. So that happened to me. So I was in a business role. So I got internally headhunted and promoted. I was doing that for a while. And then I received a call from someone I worked with at the law firm during my second state exam and before, and he was a young associate there at the time being, he meanwhile, moved out of private practice, became an in-house counselor, and he was hiring for his team and he said, look, I need a German speaking lawyer with a German education. We always worked well together. Are you, do you wanna join me? And this is the power of a network. Yes. Yeah. So I didn't get headhunted. I just got a call from a colleague who appreciated how we work together. Who thought my profile would be a great fit for the company and who asked me whether I would be in the mood, to move back into more of a legal experience and profession.

Carrie: 40:17

Yeah. Yeah. I'm so glad you made the networking comment because really we try to bring that up in a lot of episodes and a lot of people I talk to,'cause it's so interesting how that comes around for people in so many different ways. And I think a lot of times when students think about the word network or networking, sometimes it comes across as like this kind of sales pitch kind of thing, or just a very shallow way to connect with people. But really a lot of the networking that benefits people throughout their career are just people they've naturally come to know. Mm-hmm. Whether it's in their workspace, it could be at university, it could be a neighbor, like who knows, you know, there's so many people in your network, but so much of it is very natural and genuine and initially there's no intention, right, to I'm gonna put this person in my network so later on it's going to benefit me. You know, that's not how it is, but that's kind of how we think about that word sometimes. But really, it's so many connections that you just naturally have in your life and you never know how those are gonna come around later.

Gitte: 41:23

Absolutely. And it's, I think networking is, as you say, it's not always, I mean, it can be very intentional to, sure. It be its job. Mm-hmm. But ultimately, networking is more about building expertise surrounding you to ask questions. Yeah. And that can be when you in intend to change a job, it can be that they have a job for you, but it's more about increasing your thinking about your professional career and what could be the next step. So this is what networking is ultimately about. But of course, there's also an aspect where you do this intentionally to kind of like, because you have a very clear vision of where your future and your professional or private future should lead you. When I think about my career, a lot happened because of people I worked with in my previous roles.

Carrie: 42:11

So I'm assuming you took that offer from that old colleague that called you?

Gitte: 42:15

Oh yeah. It went differently than I thought because he initially wanted me for a role at a company that was based in Germany, close to where I was living at the time being, but the European headquarter of the company, by the way, it's Eaton Industries, I can mention that. So I joined my first US based global operating corporation, which was an amazing experience. I interviewed at their EA headquarters in Switzerland. And guess what I took to get a job offer for Switzerland and not for Germany, and honestly as a Oh, wow. Yeah. As a German trained lawyer, you are not necessarily prepared for an international career. It's, it might happen, but I never assumed it would happen to me, but there we go. Yeah. I was interviewing people like me and said, look, don't you wanna come to Switzerland? And I said, yeah, let's do this. And figuring out that I had to work in English from that day on, I'm still amazed by the naivete I showed at the time, and this again shows you don't overthink it, just do it. Mm-hmm. It will work out. And if you are hardworking and if you listen, you are humble. You show where your weaknesses are and that you have gaps. You will find people that help you out. So. I learned a lot there. I learned a lot, not only to work in English as a lawyer, but this is where I probably got the most valuable education as an in-house counsel, from my direct boss that has headhunted me, but also from the European general counsel, because she led a top-notch legal department. So I learned so much in this department about how to run a legal department at the company, what to focus on, what matters, what doesn't matter, how to engage the right external counsel. So I probably learned to become a general counselor there. And I also met my first mentor, who was encouraging me to even think about becoming a general counselor because, well, she sat down in the performance review and she said, so I was a senior counselor at the time being so not the junior, but not leading the department. Mm-hmm. And she said, what are your expectations? And I said, well, I wanna do well and maybe a pay raise. And she said, okay, that's not a development. And then she asked where do you wanna be in five years? And I'm like, uh, what is there? And so she was probably not only teaching me to how to run a legal department, but really to think about my career as a development. And I'm still applying what I learned from her to myself, but also to my reports, to say, okay, it's not rocket science, but it's only you who can decide what you wanna be. And it can be something within your professional path. It can be something different. It can be within the company you're with, it can be with another company, but it's more about the role you are aspiring. Where do you wanna be in two years? Where do you want to be at five years? And then to look into the soft and the hard skills you need. And as simple as it sounds, look at job descriptions. They tell you what is required. Yeah. Yes. Mm-hmm. And then all of a sudden this overwhelming question of where do you wanna be in five years becomes something that is, that you can approach with quite some logic. And I think I would've liked to know this sooner in my career. Because it gives you a little bit of a structure and the clarity, and it also allows you probably to look left and right because you know which skills you need, hard skills, soft skills, and you can acquire them within your professional lane or outside. It really depends on what. But yeah, I learned a lot. This is probably where I was shaped as an in-house counsel.

Carrie: 46:04

Yeah, that's, you made some excellent points within that, especially, I love how you framed it all as that being a learning environment for you. Because I think a lot of times people are thinking about jobs as like, what can I accomplish and what can I get out of this and how can I move forward when really we need to be looking around and like, okay, this is where I am right now. What can I learn while I'm here? What can I learn from these people around me? If you can have a mentor in that space, that's great. The learning doesn't stop with the university, right?

Gitte: 46:36

No, it doesn't. And honestly, this is one of the biggest skill sets you'd need as a manager that is within your cards, is that you're keeping this learning mindset because it is A: a sign of self-awareness. You don't know it all. And it also opens your eyes for the talents you are leading because there will be a time, when your reports are more of a meta expert than you are. Mm-hmm. And you need to be confident with that situation. And you also wanna hire, obviously, the best experts into your team because they help the team to succeed. And only when you have a mind that, that you don't know it all, I think you attract this talent and you can get the best out of them. So if you aspire to become a manager, always see every experience as a learning experience. Listen, be aware of the gaps you have, surround you with people that know better and ask them for guidance. And these can also be reports. It does not always be your manager.

Carrie: 47:32

Right. Yeah, absolutely. And I wanted to point out too, for students, just to make sure they heard you say, looking at job descriptions can be really educational, and that can be on something like LinkedIn or it can be on different corporation websites. A lot of times they'll say, you know, these are the things that are absolutely required for us to hire this person into this position. And then here's some things that we prefer. We may not require them, but we prefer to have people with the following qualifications or education or certifications or whatever it is. And that can be really helpful looking forward if there's something you think you wanna do 10 years down the road, start looking at what's required of that, because sometimes it's gonna take you years to accumulate those things.

Gitte: 48:16

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, I absolutely agree with that. And there's also something when you start learning these job descriptions and you're looking at the companies that are handing them out, you understand what a company truly aspires with this role, what's the impact, what's the measure of success? And I think this is also very interesting for your own kind of like measurement to understand the impact and the success metrics you can have. So I love reading job descriptions. I'm doing this all the time.

Carrie: 48:48

So you said that was a really great learning space for you. What was your next step after that and how do you feel like being in that position really helped you move into the next space that you moved into?

Gitte: 49:01

I need to laugh, but it was, again, the network because the regional council, who also was my mentor, she was changing companies. So she joined APM terminals. APM terminal is a container terminal operator part of the Bass group. So heavy in logistics, blue color, big harbors, big ships, big container. Really an industry that shapes the macroeconomics of this world. And she was taking the general council role for APM terminals. And at one point, she had an interesting job offer announced. And, so, I joined her team again. So I changed industries and moved out of Switzerland into the Netherlands. And I was driven, yeah, I was driven by a couple of considerations. I love Eaton industries, but I felt I'm too young to stay in Switzerland. People that are living in Switzerland might understand it. It's very settled. If you're living a little bit in an ivory tower, I know, I can totally understand If people today think like, well, I would love to have everything coordinated and predictable and a little bit of stability. Mm-hmm. That's absolutely legitimate. Look, that was probably about 15 years ago where the world was a different one. And I felt, look, I'm not close enough to retirement to not go on a couple of adventures. So there was this personal feeling, but I was obviously also very intrigued by the company. That has been something I, you shape nations, you shape industries, when you are operating at that scale. You have operations in all countries in this world and you have an impact there. So, I love the idea of understanding this industry a bit better. That has so much impact on entire nations. I can't say it differently because when you are running a terminal in Africa, you're probably contributing to half of the country's GDP.

Carrie: 51:02

Yeah. Wow. Yeah, and I'm glad you made the adventure comment too.'cause that's something for students to consider is, just the reality of life, oftentimes the earlier in your life you are, the more freedom you potentially have to move to another country or to try something very new. You may have that freedom later in your life, but generally speaking, you know, a lot of times we find that a little earlier along our path. Mm-hmm. So that's a great thing to keep in mind is, while you have the opportunity and you feel like it's a good time for you, why not go on that adventure and try something new and live in a new place, while you have the ability to do so.

Gitte: 51:44

Absolutely. And I mean, it teaches you another, I think, criteria for great leadership, and that's resilience. When you consistently like change country, when you have to adapt your lifestyle, when you have to settle into a new country, it's never easy and it's always new and you always have to change your entire infrastructure. So, this is how I did it. I always moved truly from one country to the other. But you're becoming very agile, yeah, more resilient. So I would always encourage if you have the opportunity to make a move out of the country where you studied or out of the city where you studied, or the US is so big, out of the state, try it out.

Carrie: 52:28

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I like the other thing you brought up about, these different industries, because I think sometimes, it probably sounds really scary to completely change industries. But the reality is there are so many types of jobs and roles that can easily move between industries. Mm-hmm. And maybe people don't think about that quite as much. Like, oh, I have a specialization over here, you know, I really should stay in my lane. But you can bring a whole new perspective to a different industry because your role is still your role. It may fit in a little bit differently and have some things that are different, but, a lot of the roles that people have in companies can easily be transferable into other industries. So what has your experience been like with that, and do you have some advice for people who may be hesitating to do that?

Gitte: 53:20

Yeah, that's a very good question. And I agree with you. You have transferable jobs and skills, as long as it doesn't become arbitrary. Yeah. You shouldn't change jobs for the sake of changing jobs. And it also, while I agree with you, there's one point you need to be aware of. Eventually, you're becoming more of a generalist than a specialist. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Okay. And that means in times of crisis, and I wanna be very open here, companies quite often tend to hire specialists, and not generalists. So you need to be patient. But on the other side, while I was a lawyer, I benefited highly from changing industries because I needed to change my perspective with every single industry and why I could rely on my toolbox, which was universally applicable. I became a better lawyer because I needed to approach problems differently and I could eventually see the complexity of the company beyond like a certain industry. So for me, it was very beneficial, while I was staying in my legal lane. It worked extremely well. It's might be a little bit more challenging when you are in business roles than you should think about. A, don't make it arbitrary and be aware that you're becoming or you could become a generalist.

Carrie: 54:40

Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that's a great point.

Gitte: 54:43

It's really not black and white. It's amazing to do this, and I think a lot of people underestimate it, so don't be scared by my comment. But ask yourself, what do you want to be? Mm-hmm. Are you comfortable with kind of the discomfort of being surrounded by people who know more about the matter than you are? Which comes back to when you enter into your management role and where's your comfort zone? So ask this question to yourself, and I think this is the guiding question for changing industries more often, less often, but look, we are talking about industries. That are so broad. Even if you're staying within one industry, you probably have 10 thousands of different experiences. Small companies, large companies, global companies, national companies, they all tick differently and give you a different exposure.

Carrie: 55:31

Yeah, yeah, that's true. And some of those moves could be very intentional if you see a job or a type of position you're interested in down the road and mm-hmm. If you're doing your research and see, well, some people have this background and some people have that background, maybe I could have both backgrounds. Correct, correct. And kind of do that intentionally.

Gitte: 55:49

Yeah. Well maybe like I was doing it in my next job, and yes, there are still a couple more. Interesting thing is. I moved industries because I've explained, I've been in waste management. I've been in component manufacturing. I've been in container terminal logistic services. But I've spent most of my career, or I had spent my entire career at that point in old industries. And I felt Jesus, the world is changing. There's a lot about digitalization, there's a lot about technology. So I need to push myself out of a comfort zone and I should seek an opportunity in an industry that requires me to really deep dive into this field. That is all about digitalization. This is all about the new economy. It's all about the internet of things. It's about connectivity. So I intentionally choose to leave APM Terminals, despite the great experiences I had. I was dealing with things like I'd never imagined, specifically in the field of compliance about labor law. I was traveling the entire world with this company. I was supporting projects in Morocco. I was supporting projects in Mexico, in Russia, Ivory Coast, everywhere. That was amazing. But I felt like Oosh, I should see where all this is leading, and, expose myself to something I wasn't very comfortable with and it was tech. So yeah, and this is where I called the head hunter. So it's always maybe also good of advice for students to, early on, look into companies, head hunting companies you trust in and build a relationship when you wanna make these career moves because it works both ways. Yeah, I mean, the timing needs to be right. You need to have the right advisor on the other side. But it's always good to start to know who is important in your field and to see when it's a good time for you to connect with them. I mean, don't keep a headhunter busy when you're not interested finding a new job, right? Yeah. Because they are earning the money with that. But it's good to start rather early on in your career, to figure out what these folks are doing and who might be a good fit for you at your career. Again, another type of networking. Mm-hmm.

Carrie: 58:08

So when you decided that you wanted to make that kind of move into something that was more tech related, that you didn't have the industry background. And was that coming from a personal interest of yours to do that? Or did you have your sights set on something within your career that you felt it was necessary for you to have that background to get to where you wanted to go?

Gitte: 58:30

Yeah. Well, I felt a little bit, I might be stuck at the industries I worked on, and, it was always B2B, it was always heavy labor. It was old economy and I sense that I should, I have to expose, I have to boost myself into the 21st century. And I also felt I wanna work as a legal counsel for a company where I didn't know the products that well and they were not that self-explanatory. So I thought, I'm pushing myself a little bit into a zone of discomfort.

Carrie: 59:05

Okay. So a little bit of both maybe? Yeah. Was part of that thinking that you might miss out on opportunities later? Mm-hmm. If you didn't start getting some of that under your belt?

Gitte: 59:15

Yeah. This is how I would describe it. That I would be more marketable as they say, if I had this exposure. But I also felt I can't just stay in my bubble. I need to push myself a bit out of my comfort zone. Yeah. I have to say this is probably a very personal thread. I have the tendency to do this. Mm-hmm. So mm-hmm. To not shying away from giving myself a bit of the extra push. Yeah. Yeah.

Carrie: 59:43

Yeah. So what happened as a result of that? You said you reached out to a headhunter and what happened?

Gitte: 59:48

Yeah, so I joined Juniper Networks, another US based company, a Sunnyvale company, so directly into Silicon Valley. I did that. And it was a very interesting experience. I worked extremely close with their commercial department. But after having supported major infrastructure projects in this world, it was nearly a too small role for me. Just working with a commercial team and not having this broad exposure as I had with APM terminal. So there was probably a career step. I wouldn't say it wasn't a bad experience, but in hindsight it was the wrong job for me. Yeah. Not even the wrong company, but it was the wrong role. And, this is when life happens. I met my partner, who used to live in Berlin. I was still living in the Netherlands. I didn't feel the role was a great fit. And this is how I changed jobs again. So in hindsight, I would say that was probably a career decision that wasn't very wise. But also these things happen and you always take something with you. And I got to meet great people. I certainly had great learnings and as it turns out, this, although rather short, experience like two years, was actually something that helped me to nail down my next job, because I simply had it under my belt. I worked with a tech company. Because I was then applying for the first time in my life, for a B2C company, and I moved into online dating.

Carrie: 1:01:21

Oh, wow. Mm-hmm. Okay. So that's, that does sound like a, we were laughing because, it's been so interesting to see how some people's job changes on paper, you would look at it and be like, what? Like, how does this make sense? But really, but when you listen to the story, there's all of these threads that connect it and it actually makes a lot of sense. So could you tell us how that worked for you?

Gitte: 1:01:47

Yeah, so that was amazing because, I mean, it was also that I was very intrigued by the role I was with Spark Networks. Spark Networks is a house of brand brands primarily of online dating brands in the US market at the time being so, like JD Christian Minger, a lot of serious dating. Eventually Spark Networks acquired Zeus, which is less on the serious side. They have been listed at the New York Stock Exchange at the time being, but were a German incorporated. And I mean, as a lawyer you can't ask for something more complex and more interesting and you get the entire exposure, into the SEC dynamics while still having to manage your German incorporation. And they were searching for a general counsel, and I mean, ultimately that's the ultimate career goal. Usually when you are not a US trained lawyer, you have no chance to become the general counsel of being New York Stock Exchange listed. For good reasons, by the way. So I had amazing, amazing advisors and counsel that helped me through this, through this experience. But it was just something that was too good to be true, just, from a role scope. And it was in Berlin where my partner lived. It was online dating, so that's pretty cool. So it was just an amazing role and funnily enough, this role where I thought like, wow, I'm now a general counsel of this New York Stock Exchange listed company. Yeah. Pushed me out of my legal career. It was not necessarily me that was saying it in my case, but it was more like, when I joined the company, they just, went through the acquisition of Zeus. Zeus was a US based, online dating service, twice the size of Spark Networks. And obviously there were amazing synergies, but they all needed to put into practice and there was a lot of stress. On the organization, a lot of stress on obviously the C level at Spark Networks. And that led to some decisions, where the CEO felt he needs to restructure the organization. And he decided that I'm smart enough, agile enough, I don't know, but certainly that he found a trustworthy ally. So he said, well, Gitte, you're not only doing legal now, you are also running the HR department and talent acquisition. And he was just seeing something in me and then trusted me with a task that needed oversight. And he saw, uh, back to the point what we said, there's always a set of, of underlying skills that you acquire no matter what you study, no matter what your profession is. And it could well be that this skillset matches an entirely different profile. And that was the case here. So there was a lot to organize, a lot of restructuring with regard to labor laws. There was a lot of structure to be brought, and I mean, you learn this as a lawyer, especially when you're working on heaps of different projects. You are usually kind of like very pragmatic, straightforward. And this is what he wanted and what the company needed. And this is where I, for the first time, had to run a department, which I didn't prepare for at university or with specific education. I just applied my toolkit and what I was listening to the experts. I was empowering the experts and, it was an amazing experience. From there, we just went on whenever there was a field. And that happened with, so eventually the CEO of Smart Networks changed roles, step out of the company and new CEO came in. And it was the same thing. Whenever there was a department that needed structure, that needed support, that needed management, it was handed over to me. And so I eventually became a COO. Overseeing it at one point, corporate security, cybersecurity, OKRs, customer care. So everything that was playing on the edge of compliance, structure, risk management, and this is whenever I speak to younger colleagues or to law students, I tell'em. Especially those that wanna go in-house, they are risk managers more than anything else. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so whenever there was a risky area, I was called to manage it. This is how I became a COO. Yeah. Simple as that.

Carrie: 1:06:13

Yeah. Well, I was gonna say it, it actually really makes sense. Would you talk through it like that? But when it was initially presented to you or initially handed off to you, what were you thinking? Like, were you thinking, okay, like I, I can make this work, I can look into this and learn? Did it seem very overwhelming? Like how did you react and how did you kind of take those initial steps to step into that?

Gitte: 1:06:37

I mean, obviously you're not telling a CEO, that is offering you this opportunity that you are scared and you actually think it's totally, of course, yeah. So there was kind of like, I was like, yeah, that's cool. Yeah, yeah. I can do this. And behind the scenes I was calling my boyfriend said, I just, I have no idea what to do with the HR department. He's very encouraging and I think this is also important that you have in your life people that encourage you to take these risks and that also say, well, so what is going to happen if you fail? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Right. I mean, you're not a heart surgeon. Yeah. Right. So, exactly. Yeah. You are working with experienced and decent human beings and they will reign you in if you are not doing a good job. Obviously that really depends on the role, but, yeah, I was scared. I thought it's bonkers, bizarre to give a lawyer of all things an HR department, which is about people. Yeah. But honestly you are growing with the tasks really like that. It sounds as if my parents or my grandparents would tell me that. But you grow with the opportunity and with the challenge, you really honestly do. As long as you're staying open-minded and you understand that you don't need to know it all right. Learning path. So we get back to that.

Carrie: 1:07:55

Yeah. I mean, I'm so glad you just said that.'cause also, I think women struggle with this, right? There's been a lot of articles over the last several years that women are more likely to only apply to jobs when they feel like they already know how to do all of those things that are listed. Right. And men are more likely to apply to jobs when there's a lot of the job description they don't know how to do yet'cause they're confident they can figure it out. Right? And it's just so interesting to, to put it in that light and to remind people that you do not have to know all of the things before you've even started. There's a structure in place and you can ask for help and you can learn things. There's so many different ways mm-hmm. That you can learn what you need to learn. Obviously you wanna be honest when you're in a job interview for things like that. But also, of course, yeah. You know, communicate like, I'm here to learn. I'm here to figure it out and, you know, I figured it out this time and that time and that other time and these other jobs and I can do it again. And that's such a great reminder for people to remember. You do not have to know all of it before you've even started.

Gitte: 1:08:57

Exactly. And that brings us back to reading job descriptions and understanding the impact. And also asking, when you're applying for a job, ask the company and said, so how do you measure success for this role? What's the immediate impact? I still do this. Yeah, and I'm now applying for very senior roles. But I think it's very important, and the more senior you are, the more important it is to, to underst, have a very clear understanding of what is expected to also take a decision. Is this something that interests you, but where you can also add value to the company. And sometimes it is just not the right fit. I think the question for what are you expecting from this role? What's the impact you want the role to have is so instrumental. Yeah, absolutely. There is now another company, I'm the COO of where we just announced, for Deezer that, after 15 years of not being profitable, the company is profitable for the first time. So that was another, yeah, that was another exposure as a COO, again, an amazing company and I feel I'm not only growing professional, but also personally more and more, because I can be more and more open, but overall that summarizes very well, where I'm coming from and I have no idea where I'm going. Yeah. But I just trust that great opportunities are coming my way. I stay open-minded. It might continue maybe in a time different direction. Who knows?

Carrie: 1:10:27

Yeah. Absolutely. So looking back on your story, do you have any pieces of advice that maybe somebody gave you along the way that really made an impact on you at that time, or something that you really keep with you as you go through your journey and you reflect back on? Or is there just any big life lesson that you learned that you feel like is a important thread through your story that you would wanna share with students?

Gitte: 1:10:53

Probably things that all of your listeners have heard of before, but they turn out to be true. Trust in yourself. Be confident. Don't be cocky, don't overestimate what you can, but be confident in your own skills, in your own talent, but also be confident enough to admit the limitations. And the other thing that I learned throughout my entire career, and that has also been, all the great leaders I had a chance to work with, they were always tough when it came to business calls. Very tough, very smart, but they were always kind to people. Mm-hmm. This goes back a little bit into the network direction. You don't need to be. Yeah, the tough cookie. Another word comes to mind, which we would probably have to be out. I think we know what you mean, everyone else. So don't be that. Yeah, you don't have to be, that. You can be extremely tough and you should kind of like always defend the interests of the company, of your team. You are there to be successful, but you can still be very kind to people.

Carrie: 1:11:58

Maybe we don't talk about that enough in career discussions. Right. Because I mean, we all know people that we've worked with that they could be one of the best in their industry or the best in their field or where you work, but if they are so unpleasant to interact with that nobody wants to interact with them. Right. And it's really unfortunate the types of collaborations that could be missed or the types of things that could be accomplished, if somebody's just so unpleasant to be around or to interact with, that's huge. Maybe we don't talk about that enough, but that can be a huge part and can have a big impact on your own ability to advance in your career.

Gitte: 1:12:39

And I mean, when you advance in your career, you will eventually land in a management position in most areas. And, a team will spot when you're not coming in there with good intentions. Yeah. But when you are coming in there with good, and you have to send tough messages consistently. And you have to eventually defend decisions that are not your own and you might not be a hundred percent aligned with, or when your team feels you're coming with best intention, with having their interest and the company's interest at heart, you're just kind to them. They trust you and they will help you to succeed.

Carrie: 1:13:13

Absolutely. Well Gitte, I am so appreciative of your time today and your generosity with telling your story and giving all of this fantastic advice. Thank you so much for joining us today.

Gitte: 1:13:26

Thank you so much, Carrie. It's been a pleasure. Thanks for having me. Thank you.

Carrie: 1:13:32

Do you know someone I should interview? Please DM me on Instagram@pathsinprogresspodcast and let me know who I should talk to. I would love to hear about how these stories are impacting your journey. Please follow Paths in Progress wherever you download your podcasts and leave a review to let me know what you think. You can also follow us on Facebook and LinkedIn at Paths in Progress Podcast. Our music is by John Grimmett and the artwork is by Edgar Alanis. Thanks again for joining me today.