Jenni Rebecca: Nonprofit Leader, Performing Artist; Bachelors Degree in Vocal Performance, Master of Fine Arts in Theater Directing

As a leader in nonprofit organizations, Jenni Rebecca has used talents and skills she has developed along her path–but has also made sure to be aware of what she doesn’t know, and seek learning opportunities to fill those gaps.  If you have interest in the nonprofit space, Jenni Rebecca speaks at length about her experience in different nonprofit organizations, both within and outside the arts, to give us some insight into what is involved in that career path.  Jenni Rebecca’s story is another example of using transferable skills across your career, genuine networking, and how participation in the arts can teach us some of the most valuable lessons for our professional careers. 

Transcript

0:01

Thank you for joining us today on Paths in Progress. I'm your host, Carrie Young. On this podcast, people in a variety of career fields, talk about their journey from choosing their college, deciding which majors and minors to pursue, their first jobs out of college, and all of the hurdles, detours and victories along their path through today. Our goal is to help students hear about a variety of exciting opportunities out there and understand what day-to-day life is like in these careers. I hope you enjoy and learn from our story today. Thanks for listening.

Carrie: 0:33

Hi, everyone. Thanks for joining us today. We are here today with Jenni Rebecca. She has her Bachelor's degree in Music, specifically in Vocal Performance. She has an MFA, which is a Master of Fine Arts in Theater Directing. And she's held a variety of leadership positions in arts organizations and nonprofit organizations. So we will talk about what all of that means today. Jenni Rebecca, thanks so much for joining us.

Jenni Rebecca: 0:59

Thank you for having me. I'm humbled and flattered.

Carrie: 1:02

I know we have a lot to talk about and you're going to have a lot of valuable guidance for students. Can we go back to your high school days, and can you tell us a little bit about what you were thinking at that time as far as, maybe what you envisioned for yourself career wise, or how you were, you know, taking that to go about your college search?

Jenni Rebecca: 1:22

Sure. I might actually back up a little bit earlier than that. Yeah. You know, I was, I was put into ballet, as a three year old, to correct pigeon toes, And in my family, no one escaped taking piano lessons. So that was something that I started at five and I started taking both seriously at a certain point and then was told if I wanted more jobs as a dancer, learning how to sing would be a good idea. So I started that probably around 11 or 12. And then once I got into high school, it was the first opportunity I had to do theater. And then I got really serious about that, particularly musical theater. I enjoyed all of those different outlets and really thought that I would have a career in the arts. And I think I was practical even in high school and thought, okay, I'll go study these things and then, perhaps pursue a career in teaching, you know, perhaps at the university level, knowing how difficult it might be be to pursue a performing career. That's kind of what I think I had in the back of my head, when I was in high school.

Carrie: 2:29

So were you supported in that by your family? And did you get any pushback? Because depending on our high school environment, right? Sometimes that can be encouraged if you have You know, certain teachers or programs where you can really grow in that area. And then sometimes high school environments don't necessarily encourage students to go down that path.

Jenni Rebecca: 2:48

Uh, definitely encouraged, definitely encouraged. I joke that maybe encouraged a little too much. I could have maybe used a little practical pushback from the parents. Just in perhaps, being well rounded as I go into College. So no, everybody was very, very supportive of me. And, you know, I, I came from a program where there were so many incredibly talented. I was nominally talented compared to a lot of the people that I grew up with. It was always encouraged so it was sort of a no-brainer and sort of assumed that I would pursue it in some capacity. And I'm glad I did. I don't regret anything. I don't regret my path in any way. But I think looking back, I would have maybe, appreciated some encouragement to round some of that out. Like, you know, maybe get a minor in business or something like that to a company. Yeah. So, I pursued a double major in vocal performance and theater to begin with. And at that time, and I want to be mindful of the fact that lots of things have changed, but at the time the departments didn't necessarily coordinate. So people that wanted to pursue opera, had a really wonderful path for them and people that wanted to support theater, but if you wanted to do musical theater, it was a little more challenging. So at a certain point, all of the ensemble demands in the music school and the shop demands at the theater school, just meant that I was either going to be in school for another couple of years or I needed to just drop one. So I ended up dropping the theater.

Carrie: 4:30

And if we could back up a little bit, when you were considering what school to attend, were you just looking for a school where the possibility was there to double major? Was that something that you were really focusing on and looking for a program or were there other academic considerations you had when you were looking for colleges?

Jenni Rebecca: 4:48

You know my mother was sort of chronically ill. At one point, I had a lot of aspirations and looked at programs around the country, and then it became fairly apparent that that might not be a good choice for me and our family. And so, in fact I don't think I even applied anywhere else, and the University of Houston had been very good to my older brother and so it was sort of a foregone conclusion at a certain point.

Carrie: 5:15

Yeah, I think that's the reality for a lot of people, right? There's a family situation or, a financial situation or some other type of situation that students have in their personal lives that really heavily influences where they choose to go to school, or perhaps they're not given a choice. Perhaps it's just, you know, this is where you're going. Of course, out there in society, we always talk about the search and looking all over the place and finding this perfect situation. But the reality is for a lot of students, they need to stay close to home.

Jenni Rebecca: 5:45

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Carrie: 5:49

So while you were in college, you said you started with a double major and you decided to drop one of them. Can you talk about some of the other things that you did while you were an undergraduate student that perhaps helped you, in your future or just experiences that you're thankful for or helped you grow during that time?

Jenni Rebecca: 6:07

Absolutely. So I would say that two experiences that I feel were really formative for me, was Buck Ross's, opera directing class, at the Moore School of Music. Buck is such an incredible, person and I loved the way his brain works. He's very methodical and strategic in addition to being artistic and fun. And I, I didn't really know what went into directing, whether it be theater directing or opera directing or any sort of directing. And it was really sort of magical for me because all of these different things that I had studied, you know, I also at some point had been into art. So, the visual art, the ballet, the theater, the singing, the music, all of it could come together. And I could really apply all those things as a director. It was a very exciting discovery for me. Buck was so kind to provide a really wonderful opportunity. I asked him at a certain point, can I be like stage managers, number two or something on one of these upcoming operas, just so I can get a view of what happens behind the scenes. And instead he surprised me and made me assistant director. It was just wonderful to be able to sit. next to him and he would direct something and then come back to his seat and lean over and say, okay, do you see what I did there? I did this because of this and here's what I'm going for here. And it just was so generous in sort of explaining his process. It was really a gift and that was very exciting. So I would say that was one of a really key, opportunities for me.

Carrie: 7:48

So it sounds like it's not just a class, it was finding a mentor for that area of your life. Is that what you would?

Jenni Rebecca: 7:55

Totally. I mean, mentor, big time. To this day, I still refer to Buck Ross as a mentor. I'm so glad that he was a part of my life. So yes, absolutely. Having somebody that will be kind enough to help you understand some of the whys behind what you're doing.

Carrie: 8:15

Yeah. And knowing him, I mean, obviously he saw something in you and took initiative, to help you in that way. It wasn't like you wrote to him and said, I am looking for a mentor. Would you please do this? Although sometimes that is what students need to do. If they're really looking for someone to help them In a certain way, and they find someone who seems like a great fit for that or is doing the exact thing that they wanna do someday. Mm-Hmm. You know, sometimes you do need to write and say, can I sit down and have a conversation with you? Or can I come observe? Yeah. Some of your work or see some of your process or whatever it is. Yeah. So there's nothing wrong with asking for that, but also sometimes you just kind of fall into those situations and realize that you're getting to have that experience without necessarily directly asking for it.

Jenni Rebecca: 8:58

Absolutely. And I just, I can't thank him enough because he spent a lot of time and didn't need to. He was very generous with his time. So I would say the other exciting opportunity that was really formative for me was I think, as I was going into my MFA. Was the establishment of the Cynthia Woods Mitchell Center for the Arts. It was an interesting sort of charge for the different departments to work together. And I cannot speak for the thought process of those in leadership at the time, but I will say that I think each department had maybe had an idea about how that would work and That didn't quite turn out to be What it was. I think the you know performance art and collaborative arts and multimedia arts are that's a thing unto itself and I think that you know, maybe some people went into it thinking, Oh, great. This means I'll have the art department doing my sets or, Oh, great. I'll have actual dancers in my performances. And it was something very, very different. And so as the faculty was trying to sort of grapple with what this was, they basically picked, I don't know how it came about. I feel like we were recruited, but I could be making that up. They recruited a handful of students from each department and sort of threw us in a class together and said, go do art. It was wild because we're like, what, like, we can do anything we want? It was fascinating. It was fascinating in terms of like how we worked with one another. It was fascinating in even finding a common language or a galvanizing subject or project. I had a, co conspirator, I'll call him, who was a visual artist, Anthony Thompson Schumet, and he's an incredible visual artist, and he still operates in the Houston area, and I was lucky enough to be in a group with him, and He's got very strong vision and very strong opinions and isn't afraid to express them and I really jived with him from the beginning and ended up coincidentally working with him for many, many, many years after that class. And coincidentally just texted him the other day to help me with a project at my current job. So go figure. But I think how that was really exciting for me is learning how to find common ground with people, who aren't necessarily trained in the same area as you don't necessarily have the same vision or priorities or path. And just seeing the value and what they bring to the table, I think it was a really wonderful lesson in just learning how to collaborate, and build a team in any capacity, and that has served me well over the years.

Carrie: 11:47

Yeah, that's incredible. And also, you really never know the person sitting next to you in class or in an ensemble or anything. You just never know where that can go in your future.

Jenni Rebecca: 12:01

Absolutely. And that would be a lesson I would offer is behave yourself because our world is smaller than you think. And you will always cross paths with the people that you went to school with or you worked with. It just, it's inevitable. I spent most of my, you know, the first 10 15 years of my non profit career working with all of the folks that I went to school with. And pulling from the people that I had met at that point. It was really, really exciting. I recognize the value of building a network. early on. And I think that has really been valuable to me. I've been really blessed to have an incredible network of creators and visionaries and thought leaders and just good friends, good friends.

Carrie: 12:49

Yeah. So as you were going through your undergraduate program and having all of these different experiences, was that helping shape A vision for yourself moving forward, or how did that contribute to what decision you made to do after you graduated?

Jenni Rebecca: 13:06

You know, in some ways I think it confused it.

Carrie: 13:10

Well, that happens too. That's perfectly valid, right? Yeah. I think that's very common too.

Jenni Rebecca: 13:15

I think I went into school thinking about like becoming a teacher and then, you know, I was grateful to have been accepted into the performance track, and yeah, frankly, I don't think I was talented enough to do that, to be a performer or an opera performer, I should say. And I then got really excited about the directing, like really excited about the directing, and I thought, okay, maybe, maybe I'll get into directing and simultaneously, I think I recognized that there were some real challenges in that lifestyle. I'm not making any sort of value judgment, but like being on the road for long periods of time Like I just wasn't sure that that was going to be what I wanted to do long term. And so I think it confused a lot of the clarity of like what I envisioned for my future. And so I think I then became more reactive instead of proactive in terms of like what came next. Just because I just didn't have total clarity.

Carrie: 14:17

I think that's a common experience too, especially when you discover something different while you're in college that isn't necessarily, I don't want to say it's not consistent with the original plan because you were still generally in the same artistic space. You were just looking at different roles, right? And different perspectives from what you were doing, which I think that can be a valuable thing, especially for performers. If you start out with some kind of performing dream or performance training and you realize for whatever reason, whether it's talent based or lifestyle based, or you're just tired, you that you don't see yourself performing anymore. There are so many other people in that space with performers, right? Whether it's, everybody from directors to all of the people who are part of production to talent managers to people's agents and accountants and PR reps, the people who run the theater. There's so many other roles you can play in that space. So I think that's a great point to bring up is there's other things you can do if you're interested in staying in the same ecosystem or kind of the same space. You can look at all the other different roles that are possibilities for you.

Jenni Rebecca: 15:34

Yes, absolutely. And I do wish that message had come through louder and clearer at the time. So I, so Carrie, I think you're doing a great service and trying to share that message because I don't think that that really landed with me, or maybe I just didn't internalize it. I still had this idea of pursuing art in some capacity and, coming out of my MFA. I had met a fellow student, and it's interesting, our personalities are, at the time especially, just felt very different. And she and her husband at the time, approached me and said, Hey, we think we want to start a theater company and we'd like you to be the third person. And it felt a little like it came out of left field. I was like, I can't remember. I think maybe I saw a performance, a Fornes play, that Amy, my collaborator, had directed and just was so thrilled and excited by it, and maybe told her so, and maybe that was sort of like the catalyst of them approaching me. Because I just, the experimental side, and I think, you know, going back to the Mitchell Center for the Arts, I think that the sort of experimental side of what we were doing was exciting to me. Approaching art almost like a science experiment, and so in any case, we started this theater company, Nova Arts Project. Oh gosh, we were so pretentious. Pretentious and not pretentious at the same time. Because like we had these wackadoodle ideas, like, let's do a Taming of the Shrew/Grease mashup, like just, just crazy, crazy ideas. And, our first production was a, this I think was their idea, and I want to make sure I give credit where credit's due, but it was the Oedipus cycle. So the three plays, Oedipus Rex, Oedipus Colonus, and Antigone, but all cut down. using the same cast, and performed in one night with three different directors. It was, it was so wild. There were some other folks in the theater department at the time that were incredibly talented and really fun, just really fun people, who got roped into this, and many are operating in the theater scene in Houston to this day, Philip Hayes, for example. And then Bernardo Cubria, who writes for Acapulco, I don't know what network it's on, but I think it's on Apple. But in any case, he's one of the main writers. I mean, yeah, no, it's incredible. I mean, when I say these folks were talented, these folks were talented. So Bernardo and, Philip, they were really into, Not Commedia De L'Arte, they were into Tragedia, they had like gone into Europe and studied and it's like this really sort of over the top theater style. And so they basically put the chairs on the stage and treated it almost like a street performance and it was silly and fun and irreverent and, that's how Oedipus Rex was done. Like how Oedipus defeated the Sphinx was like a dance off. I mean, it was totally,

Carrie: 18:43

oh wow,

Jenni Rebecca: 18:44

kooky, but like really fun and playful. And then, the director of the second portion there's was very sort of, physical, had a very sort of like, Martha Graham. Like it was very physical and very beautiful. And then I directed Antigone, but anyway, the point is that it was just this, this crazy thing. And we immediately got a lot of attention in the Houston art scene. There was always people doing cool things behind the scenes. But, this was such a wild sort of idea and we took ourselves so seriously that, we were very fortunate to have some arts leaders in the community that sort of took notice and were very kind in sharing what we were doing. And that sort of led to a couple of years of really fun, really hard experimenting and collaboration. And this is, of course, in addition to our day jobs, so we were all struggling and doing this in our free time, trying to figure out how to make it work. But I really, I am so grateful to Amy and Clinton for approaching me with this question. Crazy, crazy idea.

Carrie: 19:48

Well can you talk about that a little bit as far as balancing more than one role, especially right out of school, because I think that's often more common than what we talk about, too. And obviously in the arts that exists quite a bit, and it's a norm, especially when you're first starting out. But it's not just in the arts, right? I mean, now we're hearing a lot more stories since the pandemic of a lot of teachers who have second jobs, whether that's on the weekend or there's something they focus on in the summer. And there's a lot of different people who have more than one gig going on. Nope. Whether it's out of necessity or whether it's out of, you know, my nine to five is what pays my bills. And then what I really love to do is the second gig, right? So can you talk a little bit about just what life was like in that kind of situation and what, I guess what you learned from that, but also maybe, did it impact any decisions on your career path moving forward as far as, maybe what you wanted to change or what you wanted to make sure you did in the future?

Jenni Rebecca: 20:45

Yeah. Yeah. I think that through that experience, it made me want to know how to make the business side work. I think that, just seeing what it took and just to do a high quality production without ensuring that everybody was paying attention. Paid and paid equitably, Because you know, it was really a labor of love for us. I think that that really led to me being really interested in sort of the administration and the fundraising and the business side of things, the management, the promotion, the marketing, how all of that worked. And so, yes, I think that that absolutely opened up the next path. And that was in fact how I got my next gig. At the time I had interned right out of my MFA, I'd interned at Theater Under the Stars and really loved the team there. That transitioned into a job in development and that was the job that I had while I was doing a lot of this work with Nova arts project. And. Through trying to promote NOVA Arts Project, I got acquainted with somebody named David Brown, who had started an organization called Spacetaker, and Spacetaker was an organization really trying to elevate the indie art scene in Houston, like underground arts, like people doing really cool things, experimental things, and I really I loved it. They had these cool events, like, they originally called them the Artist Saloons, and it eventually rebranded as the Artist Speakeasy. But, just bring in, like, three different artists doing, it could be similar things or totally different things. And they would come and essentially do a show and tell. It was so fun to get a peek into, this community of artists that were doing fantastic work and unusual work and things that I wasn't previously familiar with. And, eventually he said, Hey, you want to come work for me? And, I did. So that led to the next eight years of my life.

Carrie: 22:46

And that's a great thing to bring up as well is how so many opportunities for people can be just within collaborations, within conversations with people within somebody seeing your work or getting to know your work through another way. And I know that can be frustrating for people too, you know, cause they're wanting that to happen for them, but can you. As somebody who that has happened to, and then also, you know, I don't know if you've ever, kind of pinged someone to come work with you because you've witnessed them in another space. Could you talk about that for students for a minute? Why you think that happened to you, and then what are the kind of things that you see in people that cause you to want to bring them into the work that you're doing?

Jenni Rebecca: 23:33

Mm hmm, mm hmm. I think it could be any number of reasons. I can't say why David, necessarily approached me, aside from the fact that he knew that I was really into what he was trying to do. I found it very exciting, I wanted to help, I wanted to be involved, and I was hungry. I think he recognized that I was hungry, to do more, and to learn more, and to see more,

Carrie: 24:00

And part of that is talking about it, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So like one thing that I've encouraged students before is, you know, when you're having conversations with people, talk about what you're interested in. Yeah. Talk about what you really would like to learn, or experiences you'd like to have, because At some point, somebody's gonna say, Hey, you know, I actually know someone who's looking for someone to do that, or I actually know someone who, you know, yadda yadda, but that you, that opportunity can present itself, but if you never tell anybody what you're interested in and what you'd really like to do, then it's a lot harder for that to happen, right?

Jenni Rebecca: 24:34

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I do think that there are folks in this world that are just for lack of a better word, just connectors. Like they're really, really good at saying this person is looking for this thing and this person has this thing. Let's put them together.

Carrie: 24:51

Yeah. David

Jenni Rebecca: 24:52

was definitely one of those people. Another person in the Houston art community that everybody knows is David. Nancy Wozniak, and she's very much like that and is very generous and kind with her time and her attention and her love and cultivation of the art community. So I think identifying some of those folks is also important. But yeah, you're absolutely right. I think curiosity, just leading with curiosity is never a bad thing. As you explore and discover what interests you, and dive deeper and deeper into that, just, you know, being visible and being curious, and putting yourself out there and being willing to express your curiosity and your interests. Absolutely. When I was at Spacetaker, I came on as a Managing Director. Because I had come out of development at Theatre Under the Stars fundraising, I think, you know, David was interested in getting some support in that area. That is what I focused on, but then I sort of realized that, there's all these other pieces that I would like to better understand and what became really clear to me and working for a nonprofit, and one that was, still in a very grassroots stage is that there's so many Gosh, there's so much business administration that you just don't know. How to properly hire somebody and follow labor laws. How to make sure that you've got all the proper business filings. Making sure that you are filing the proper tax returns. And that's not even talking about like the marketing and promotion and the fundraising and all of the rules around, fund development and how you record gifts. And I didn't know any of that. I didn't know any of that. And so I tasked myself, very early on with, well, I have all these gaps that I need to fill in. And what was kind of fun about that job, was that I got to say, okay, what do I want to learn about? I want to learn about accounting. And then I would ask our community of artists that we were working with, you know, like, well, where are you struggling? Oh, fundraising. Oh, I would like to learn about marketing. And so then I would identify folks, in the community and, with David's help of course. Who were doing all these things really well, and we'd put together workshops. So

Carrie: 27:09

That's amazing.

Jenni Rebecca: 27:10

Yeah. Well, what was fun about it is that it was the mission of the organization to help professional practices for artists, but I got to learn alongside all of these artists. It was really sort of a privilege for me to have the opportunity to beef up my knowledge in all of these areas that I just didn't really have much experience in prior to that.

Carrie: 27:32

Yeah. Didn't y'all do grant writing workshops? Yes,

Jenni Rebecca: 27:35

we did. Yes, we did. We did grant writing workshops. There were so many nonprofit professionals around the city that were so generous with their time that would come in and participate in the workshops and offer their expertise. And, the thing also that I tried to keep in mind as we crafted these workshops and these resources was that: there's best practices and then there's the practical, how do you get it done in your limited time after work? How do you get it done with the, the skills that you have? The reality is so many people operating in the arts have other supplementary income or other jobs. And that's a conversation that I've had with a lot of folks over the years is that We do young people a disservice, when we claim or pretend that there are all these successful artists out there making a living with their art alone.

Carrie: 28:33

Yeah.

Jenni Rebecca: 28:34

Some of the absolute best artists, the ones that people, look at and say, Oh, they're in the best galleries in town. For example, they have day jobs too. They absolutely have day jobs too. And yet they have to pretend like they don't. And how silly is that? Right? There's a lot of artists that are living this double life, trying to cobble together a bunch of different jobs to make things go. And I wish we could demystify that, and I wish we could take the shame out of that. Because it's a pressure, not just to think that you have to make it go, with your art alone, but a pressure to keep it secret, too.

Carrie: 29:13

Mm, yeah. One thing I heard at one point that was really interesting to kind of, give to students, I guess, as a perspective is that: some people need their work to be their thing. They need their job to be what they're passionate about. And some people need a job to be able to do the thing they're passionate about.

Jenni Rebecca: 29:36

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Carrie: 29:37

And so. It's not black and white, obviously, it's not, but sometimes that's helpful to look at because I think so many people think, Oh, I need to find this in my job, which if you're that kind of person, then that may be true, but you don't necessarily have to look at it that way. You could look at it like, you know, there's this thing I want to do. What job gives me the income and the flexibility to be able to do that?

Jenni Rebecca: 30:04

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That is interesting. Yeah. You phrased that beautifully, Carrie, in the sense that it really depends on the type of person you are, but I had found that a lot of people that fell into arts administration because of the emotional energy You Involved in their day jobs, it made it more difficult for them to pursue their side gigs versus if they were like a receptionist, like, they might have the emotional energy to be more invested, in their after hours, artistic work. And so that would be the other piece that I would balance is that if they're getting the artistic gratification from their day job, then perfect. But if they are pursuing that after hours, then having something that's going to tax you emotionally, in the same realm might be something that they think about. I'd have a lot of young artists in my capacity with Spacetaker and, Spacetaker, I should say as a sidebar, eventually, merged with another wonderful organization, Fresh Arts Coalition, and became Fresh Arts. So, Spacetaker no longer exists, but Fresh Arts is alive and well and thriving in the Houston area. But one of the things that, I had a lot of conversations with artists about is they're like, well, you know, I think I want this kind of job or that kind of job. And I would encourage them to think about like how much emotional energy that was going to take and That might help them decide what kind of role they're looking for.

Carrie: 31:29

Yeah, and just in different seasons of life, too. There may be a season of life where you really can give that emotion and that energy to a job like that. And then there may be another season of life where you have other things going on, where you can't afford to do that. It's too much of a sacrifice for you personally.

Jenni Rebecca: 31:44

Yeah, absolutely. And, that's been a little bit, that's been a little bit of my affliction my entire life is that I mean,

Carrie: 31:52

yeah, me too.

Jenni Rebecca: 31:54

Dumped a little too much into all these different pursuits. And, it's been consuming. You know, I'm learning boundaries, my husband would disagree, he would say, he would, he would say, you're as bad as ever. I think I've been so flexible and maybe on some level practical, that, I couldn't help but want to pour all my emotional energy into my day job. And I will admit that that also made it more difficult for me to pursue anything on the side. Very early on, in the Fresh Arts days, I was still performing and doing some gigs here and there and that eventually just fell away because I didn't have the time to really dedicate to it because it was hard enough running a non profit. One thing that was really interesting about my work with Fresh Arts is that I got to dabble in a little of everything. A jack of all, master of none situation. I wouldn't have called myself a good fundraiser at the time. But for whatever reason, the perception was there that I was. And so, I had, through my many collaborations, I was taking some time away. And really considering whether I wanted to continue a non profit. And, a dear colleague who I had collaborated with in the capacity of Fresh Arts, who had been the executive director of Dance Source Houston, was then at an organization, Asia Society Texas Center. And said, Hey, there's a position open, and I think you would be great for it. I want to introduce you to my boss. And I was like, yeah, I don't know. Nonprofit's been hard. It's been hard on me. It's taken a toll. I don't know.

Carrie: 33:29

Do you mind talking a bit about that? Because I know there's public perception for the challenges for working in the nonprofit sector.

Jenni Rebecca: 33:38

Sure. Sure. I think it depends. The life cycle of the organization and the size of the organization makes a huge difference, in how that impacts your workload, how that impacts your scope of work, and what you learn. Like, for example, I started at Theater Under the Stars. And so my scope of work was narrow, and really focused on sort of administrative tasks related to fundraising. Then, I find myself at Fresh Arts and I'm doing accounting and I'm working with a board of directors and I'm doing marketing and promotion and all of the business operations as well. And we're talking about, gosh, I don't even, I can't remember the size of Tuts at the time, but obviously a major arts organization in the city and to an organization that had a budget under$500, 000 with a staff of four. And so it was night and day in terms of what was on my plate and the pressure to make things go. That was actually something that sort of became a little bit of a crusade that I had, again, and I've also been afflicted with taking myself too seriously, throughout my life. But just seeing The haves and the have nots within the art community, in terms of the organizations that just had incredible resources and access to amazing philanthropy and those that did not. And, you know, obviously you're serving different audiences. There may or may not be a demand for certain types of work. And all of that is okay. And yet, I think more has to be done. And I think that there's been tremendous, tremendous progress, since I sort of left that space. But, at the time, it just felt like there were a lot of especially grassroots and BIPOC led arts organizations that just didn't have any of the access to the philanthropy and didn't have the support. Even the public funding was harder in some ways for them to get than it was the larger organizations to get. And it just felt like, gosh, you know.

Carrie: 35:46

Defeating.

Jenni Rebecca: 35:47

Yeah. And I, you know, I admire people that have persevered and continued to do it year after year. I mean, I think of Mecca, the incredible arts organization serving, the Hispanic Latino community in Houston. Led by Alice Valdez, who is just heart and soul in this, and her investment and her leadership obviously was critical to this organization thriving and existing to this day. But, you know, this thing that was so special to these communities that are vibrant in Houston, you know, she had to fight tooth and nail for a lot of funding and support. I just admire that she stuck to it and thank goodness because, you know, this is still a vibrant arts organization and very special to the community to this day.

Carrie: 36:35

So I guess some of that influenced your, you said you were taking some time away to consider whether you would continue a non profit. Mm hm. So I assume some of those factors just the toll that it can take and the energy that it can take. Absolutely.

Jenni Rebecca: 36:48

The, the scarcity mentality. I do think too many organizations operate with a scarcity mentality. And I think that sometimes when you take leaps of faith, it pays off. And some of that might have just been luck. I mean, I'll use for example, conversations around equity in the workplace and unpaid internships. And these were all things that were starting to bubble up. And obviously in the art community and arts organizations, we've thrived on unpaid internships for far too long. And at a certain point I thought, you know what? We are a tiny organization and we don't have a whole lot of resources, but let's take a stand on this. Let's give it a go. And we did and did away with unpaid internships. I hope that's still their practice. I can't say now whether it is or it isn't, but, just saying, this is what we're going to do. And then doing it, and then having sort of minimums of what we would pay for certain things. And I will be transparent and say we didn't start that way. But as these things hit my radar and as these conversations were bubbling up in, in the arts leadership realm and in arts practices, organizations and arts service organizations, I really thought it was important for us to lead with our values. And I will say that I felt like we were one of the earlier organizations to say that no, we're just absolutely not going to do that anymore. And I was proud of that. So, I think that the values come into it, as well. Like, what are you willing to compromise? Becoming clearer and what my values were over the years, and trying to really stick to them and, really trying to be a woman of integrity, played a role in how I wanted to operate moving forward and, you know Taking some time, I was still doing contract grant writing, so I was still sort of operating in the non profit space, but just kind of trying to get my bearings and figuring out what was next. And got recruited into Asia Society Texas Center. And that was such an exciting organization, because not only did it have the arts and culture piece, the performing arts, the visual arts, that I had spent so much time in, but it also had this really exciting educational piece, and diplomacy, and business and policy. So I got to expand my horizons and learn about all of these other areas, and also work for an organization that really highlighted Houston's diversity and vibrance in that way and our immigrant communities, which really make Houston so special. And so that really allowed me to open up my areas of interest and beef up my skills, Gosh, you know, we talked about mentorship early on, and I would say that Bonna Cole, the president of Asia Society, was definitely a mentor to me. I think she would probably agree to that. She was so generous in saying, okay, you could do this, but how about doing it this way? Or, okay, I see what you've written here. You need to make that about this, this email solicitation. You need to make about. Like two thirds shorter. And so she was really great in coaching with kindness. I think she recognized in me that I was always hungry for feedback and coaching and, really was generous that way. And so I learned so much under her about so many different things that really helped me put my early fund development experience together with all of the different things that I had done in my capacity with Fresh Arts as executive director and then allowed me to sort of beef all of that up. That was a really meaningful time, there at Asia Society and it allowed me the opportunity to again expand my network of incredible people that I had the opportunity to work with.

Carrie: 40:30

The way you described that just now is an important reminder for students to think about that if you get an opportunity somewhere, sometimes on the surface, it may seem unrelated to your previous work, or it may seem like, I'm not sure about that. I'm not familiar with that organization or something. But oftentimes there are a lot of transferable skills that you have that you'll be able to use in a different space. And sometimes, as you were mentioning, there are a lot of similarities that you may not be aware of at first. So I think it's, I think it's super important to not discount an opportunity because it doesn't seem on the front end, like it makes sense for you, whereas if you dig into it a little more, you're open to having conversations about it first before you maybe discount that opportunity. You may realize, Oh, there are a lot of ways that this is similar to things that I'm doing or things that I want to do, and I could really bring my experience from this other place or this other life experience that I have, and I really could utilize it here.

Jenni Rebecca: 41:38

Absolutely. And I think my whole trajectory has been a, a study and transferable skills. I never thought that I would be doing what I'm doing now. Like that just didn't even register for me. Now I work for an organization in Seattle called the Mockingbird Society in. in advocacy and public policy. So we're an organization that, it's not involved in the arts at all. As it turns out, it's an organization that partners with young people with lived experience in the foster system and, or homelessness, to identify issues where they've faced challenges within these systems. And to advocate for systems change and policy, to address those issues and oftentimes legislative action and in the, yeah, it's a really amazing organization. And if I may say so, and it's been around 20 years and it has 70 plus, Legislative wins. But the thing that I'm learning about this is that the systems change piece and the advocacy piece, which became a thread in my arts work. I had been pulled into various committees, when the city of Houston did the first cultural plan, I was Recruited to be part of the committee that sort of helped advise that, which was an incredible honor. And I was completely outclassed by everybody in the room. So, you know, here I am, this tiny arts administrator of a tiny organization sitting with like the head of the two largest arts organizations in the city. Yeah,

Carrie: 43:16

Okay. But let's point out when that happens to people, there's a reason you were asked to be in that room, right? Cause I think that's something a lot of us have experienced at some point in our life where you look around and you're like, Oh my God, how did I get in this room or what is going on? Why, you could have imposter syndrome, you could be thinking all kinds of things. But such an important reminder: you're there. There's a reason you're there and there's something you have to offer. And there's a perspective you have that they value as the reason, you know, why they would put you in that room.

Jenni Rebecca: 43:47

Yeah. Yeah. And yes, yes. I think what was challenging if I can be honest about that experience was that I realized they had a wonderful group of people that they recruited some from smaller organizations, a handful of independent artists, and things like that. But then, you know, they would have two hour meetings. From two to four in the afternoon. Well, you know, as we've already discussed, everybody has day jobs. I found myself in, Sebassarwar of Voices Breaking Boundaries, a wonderful organization, I don't know if it's operating in Houston anymore, but like we oftentimes found ourselves the only two people at the table that represented organizations with budgets under a million dollars. In a huge city, the only two. And so then, yeah, it did feel sort of incumbent upon both of us to raise our voices on behalf of really the majority of arts organizations in the city because there Aren't that many with budgets over a million dollars the bulk are much smaller. And so, yeah, it was our responsibility to bring that perspective to the table. And, yeah, we may have gotten in a little bit of trouble doing so. I think. Yeah, we it forced us to step up. And that was Scary. I'll be honest. It was very scary.

Carrie: 45:08

So going back to what you're doing now. Yeah. So you were with Asia Society in Houston. Now you're in Seattle with Mockingbird and on paper that seems like, Whoa, you're going all the way across the country. You're going to an organization with very different mission. Yeah. What drove that kind of change for you without, you know, giving us too many personal details you don't want to share?

Jenni Rebecca: 45:28

Yeah, yeah. Well, I had always sort of dreamed of ending up in Seattle. My mother's from the Seattle area, and I still have a lot of family here, that I never really got to spend much time with. I mean, I would certainly visit, but I remember coming here for the first time at 11 years old and falling in love with the scenery and the ocean. So yeah, that was always a dream and, my, he wasn't my husband at the time, but my partner, during the pandemic, was laid off and, spent some time looking. It was a really rough time. He was in oil and gas, so it was a rough time for anybody in that industry. Yeah, yeah. And at a certain point, we were all working from home, and so I wasn't necessarily going into the office at the time. We were doing a lot of virtual programming, and he's like, hey, should I be looking in Seattle? And I thought, Well, sure. Why not? Like, okay. And so it wasn't a week later that he had an offer. Yeah, it would happen very, very quickly. Um, and then I was kind of like, Oh, now what do I do? And I figured, okay, it's going to be some time before we're back in the office. I had a wonderful relationship with my boss at Asia Society and I just was honest with her. And I said, look, this is kind of where we're at. And since we're doing our jobs from home, would you have an issue with me doing my job from home 2, 500 miles away? And she was like, go for it. And so, we sort of treated it as an experiment. We didn't let go of our apartment immediately. We found a furnished place up here and we figured, okay, let's see how this goes and if we like it, maybe we can make this permanent and if we don't, we'll come back to Houston. It became clear at a certain point that we wanted to stay. And it was really hard to make the decision to leave Asia society because we were in the midst of some really exciting things they've done. They've got an incredible director of education and I've always really Loved the education piece. And then honestly, that was one of my struggles in advocating for arts funding is that I feel like we might be more successful if we focused our advocacy around funding towards arts education rather than funding performing large performing and visual arts organizations and literary art, you know, large arts organizations, because we need to build the audience. We need to instill the love in the young people. We need them to realize how important these things are at an early age. And if you don't, you're always going to be subsidizing it later on down the road. And so I always struggled if I had to, of course, it shouldn't be either or, but if it was an either or decision, I would say no, put the money towards arts in schools. That would probably be my choice. So anyway, that was one of the more gratifying aspects at Asia Society is that there was a huge investment in really focusing on helping elevate diversity and helping young people understand how people around the world work and how they think and showing how our dreams and beliefs are not so different. Especially in a city like Houston, that's so multicultural and diverse and vibrant, like that's really important. And there are young people that might never have the opportunity to travel to Asia. And so bringing a little of that to them, I think was the goal, and that was a really exciting thing. It was really hard to say goodbye to that. But I also thought it offered an opportunity for me to try some areas that have always been of interest. It had always kind of been on my heart to look into the foster system specifically. During that period before my time at Asian Society where I was kind of just figuring out what was next. Had started the process of becoming a child advocate, a CASA, a court appointed special advocate, I think is what they stand for. It's a volunteering role, but it, was very much sort of in that space. It became very clear that I wouldn't be able to commit to the time as soon as I accepted the role at Asia Society. So I sort of put that aside. When the role at the Mockingbird Society came up, I thought, okay, I've spent my whole life in the arts And while I'm gratified by that, I feel comfortable in exploring something else. And there are so many needs and so many ways to apply the things that I've learned that it felt like a good opportunity to pivot. And I think I've always tried to be curious and. In any job I've had, I feel like I've poured myself into learning as much as I possibly can about the subject or about the body of work. And, oh, Carrie, it has been a wild ride learning all about these systems and these laws and in a space that is totally new to me. It's humbling, incredibly humbling, because, you know, I had spent all those years beefing up my expertise in one area, and now I'm a fish out of water. And, um, and, and

Carrie: 50:46

You feel like there's purpose in doing that, right? I mean, it's not just some arbitrary thing you're learning about. There's purpose to it.

Jenni Rebecca: 50:52

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that, it became difficult at a certain point to raise so much, in the way of funding, knowing that there were so many other needs out in the community. I felt like it was time for me to try that. And it has been a wild learning journey.

Carrie: 51:12

In the development kind of positions you've had, could you talk about what development means? Because this is essentially a field that some people have their whole careers in and it is essential to the success of a lot of organizations. So can you talk to students about what it means to work in development and what those type of positions generally look like as far as what your role is within the organization and perhaps the type of skills people need to have to be in that space?

Jenni Rebecca: 51:46

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I'll start with: what is development? Fund development? And sometimes you will hear it referred to as advancement. And sometimes it is strictly fundraising and sometimes it's sort of a mix of fundraising and communications. It really depends on how that structure within each nonprofit and it also depends on the size of the nonprofit and it also depends on the different funding streams for a nonprofit. Like, for example, now that I'm working more in the social service space, there's public funds that are supporting a lot of these organizations. So for the size of their budget. They may not have the same size staff that like, say, an arts organization of a similar budget size would have just because they're receiving more government support for the various direct services they're providing. Now that said, that is in the organization. I'm in now, government funding does not represent a large portion of our budget at this point. And so, it really is about, grant writing. Writing grants to the various foundations, entities, and sometimes corporations. Building those relationships. It's communicating our mission to all of our stakeholders, whether they're community partners or the young people that we work with or just, you know, interested parties in the community. Fundraising at its core, is about building relationships. You oftentimes hear the saying it's friend raising and that's true. It really is. And it's about whether it be like a relationship of a foundation or whether it be a relationship with an individual patron, like It's really understanding what you're trying to do and having clarity about that and communicating that and then finding where that resonates with people, and trying to make that connection, and then tend to it. It's not just identifying and securing that first gift. It's then about tending to the relationship and stewarding those patrons and making sure that they continue to understand how their support is meaningful to the organization and therefore hopefully continue that support. It's interesting and you know depending on your role within a development department. It can be you know Less about that. Like if you're a grant writer, for example, you become probably more about telling that story in writing. Although, depending on what the funding community looks like in your city, it can also have writing grants and having foundation relations can be very much about relationships. I'll explain that a little further. In Texas, and in Houston in particular, we are such a resource rich community, obviously the energy sector and there's such a culture of philanthropy. As a result, there are lots and lots and lots and lots of family foundations. And those family foundations may or may not have professional staff, that help manage that. On the East and West Coast. You have a lot more foundations with professionalized staff. So the relationship and the grant making process and all of that becomes more technical, and less about knowing the right person to open the door and accept and read your proposal. So it really depends on where you land and what that community environment is like. I spend far less time talking to foundation trustees here in Seattle than I ever did in Houston. It was a much, much bigger thing. And I find that interesting. I mean, it's not to say that, that isn't still part of the mix. It absolutely is, but just not to the same degree.

Carrie: 55:29

Yeah. If people are interested in a development type route, would you recommend seeking internship in that area as a student, or are there certain types of degrees or courses that you feel like would be really valuable for students to try out while they're in college?

Jenni Rebecca: 55:50

I don't know these days again with all of the arts leadership programs and nonprofit administration programs out there. It would seem obvious to go into some sort of arts leadership or nonprofit administration program. I remember that when that started to be a growing field many, many, many years ago, I felt like there was maybe less of a nuts and bolts approach to what people were learning. It was high level conceptual. Not this is how you put this budget together. This is how you craft. Right. This is how to read a 990. A tax return. So there were a lot of things that I had to learn on the job and I hope that the programs have evolved to include more of that. I can't say though, cause I don't have the firsthand knowledge.

Carrie: 56:39

Yeah.

Jenni Rebecca: 56:40

I think onboarding and being again hungry and trying to recognize what you don't know and then trying to fill in those gaps. Like right now I have a young woman that works for me and she's been really clear that like she wanted a change from what she was doing and wanted to get into nonprofit, but didn't quite know what to do What she wanted to do. She ended up in my department and it's been really kind of exciting to just loop her into everything. To say, okay, this is what my life looks like. You see all the different things that I'm doing and depending on what you want your career trajectory to be, we can start beefing up your skills in one area or another. And so, that's been a fun journey because there hasn't necessarily been the clarity. And so I've tried to give her a taste of everything to see what resonated. And I do think that having an opportunity, whether it be through an internship or having an opportunity to do that, I think is, maybe ideal, to get clarity on where you want to go. And sometimes that happens organically on the job over time. I have gotten more serious as I've matured as a professional and as a manager, I've gotten more serious about my responsibility as a coach. And in really helping younger professionals in their career. I think I was really bad at that at first. I'll be, I'll be honest. Just because I sort of was of the mind, well, of course I think you're brilliant and talented and skillful. I hired you, didn't I? Some of the things that needed to be said explicitly and things that needed to be made explicit, I think maybe I was not so explicit. So that's, that was a learning journey for me, too.

Carrie: 58:25

Obviously this has been a conversation in education for a long time, but it seems like it's peaked even more recently. I guess some of it is parents, but some of it could also be educators looking at particularly public school education. And thinking that students maybe be, should be dropping their, hour intensive arts programs, whether that's something like marching band or choir or musical theater, in favor of, you know, taking more AP classes and being more academically rigorous to quote prepare for college and their career. Cause you were someone who was both in the arts, and an excellent student and an academic. So can you talk about how you feel like being an artist and being in the arts, was important as far as your development as a human being has contributed to who you are in your career overall. Because I think that's part of the conversation that parents and students don't necessarily hear that, okay, if your job ends up not being in the arts, your participation in the arts can still be an important part of your development.

Jenni Rebecca: 59:37

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And to anybody that suggests dropping the arts in school, I say, absolutely not, absolutely not. The arts are what keep some people alive. They are what keeps some people in school. They are the reason some students get up and go to school. It is so important. It is where people can learn about themselves, learn how to collaborate. Far more lessons about teamwork and collaboration in the arts than I ever learned in any of my academic classes. Like, by far. And that is so critical to operate in any sort of professional field. Also, here's the other thing that I think artistic people get that a lot of people don't and it's something that I've had to sort of be careful about is that, you know, when you're in the arts, you're used to receiving constructive feedback all the time. Like, what can you do better? How can you be better about this? And how can you be stronger in this? And so this idea of continuous improvement is just sort of embedded in your psyche. That is not the case with everybody. And, just learning that that is not what everyone is used to and people are more sensitive about that. Like that's been an interesting lesson for me. But how critical is that for you just to grow as a human, is being receptive to that feedback in a professional setting. And I do I feel like that has been one of my strengths is being really, really receptive to feedback and constructive criticism. And hungry for it, like, please tell me how to do this better. Getting that guidance. So I feel like those are two incredible lessons from the arts. That I don't feel like I got those in other areas. And it's a way to share our humanity. We watch TV, we watch Netflix, et cetera. Well, I mean, that's art. That's all art. And so these things. that really sort of help educate us about other people's experiences. I mean, the arts are oftentimes how that happens, whether it be literary arts or film or theater or music. That's how we come together as humans. And I feel like we would be doing a huge disservice to young people, depriving them of that. What's interesting is that here I am in a totally different field and working adjacent to human surfaces and dealing with very marginalized communities. When you talk about healing spaces and how these young people, can really grow and come together and build community. The top thing that they say is art, the arts. It's always the arts. And I think, you know, isn't that funny that here I am having this reintroduced into my world. Because it is so important, even when you think, oh, maybe there are more important things out there. Well, maybe not. Maybe it's all important.

Carrie: 1:02:32

Yeah, absolutely. I love that. Well, as you look back over your journey, is there any advice that you've received, along your path that you felt really helped you? Or is there just any advice in general that you would like to share with students today?

Jenni Rebecca: 1:02:48

Yeah, I think that centering yourself and your values. First of all, identifying them, figuring out what they are. Right. And then really holding yourself to that, holding yourself accountable and doing, you know, that gut check, in the various spaces you're operating in..I think that has been really, really, really important to me. I have always, as I mentioned, my affliction of pouring a little too much of myself into my job. I think that because of that, it's been really important for those things to be aligned for me. And I think humility, and understanding that you're not confusing your young enthusiasm, and energy for caring more about things than your elders. So I'll say like, for example, in the arts advocacy, I became, for lack of a better word, known as being outspoken. And, Now, I've often had my girlfriends say, I don't think they would have used that word if you were a man. And that may be true. But sort of outspoken about Various things going on in the community and I think that's why I became known as an arts advocate in the Houston area. I will say that early on, I felt like, why is nobody else saying this? Why is nobody else saying it? And then as I became an older and wiser, I realized, Oh, they have been saying it. They're just tired. So, just the humility in that. I giggle about, I was just with some arts colleagues, the other day and laughing about how some of the elders and the, oh, gosh, and they would roll over if they heard me use the word elders, but, you know, people that had been in the world for years and years and years before me. How annoying I must have been to them when I was younger. Just because, you think that you're presenting new ideas when no, no, you're not, they're tired of fighting the same fights for years and years and years on end. So you know, humility, listening. Identifying those people that will really support you. There's so many people that come to mind that have been such a gift. You know, I mentioned Buck Ross, the opera director at Moore School. I mentioned David Brown. I mentioned Nancy Wozni, who's, does Arts and Culture Magazine and is just like, the fairy godmother of the art community in Houston, and Bonna Cole at Asia Society. These are all people that, like, invested a lot in me, a lot of energy, a lot of effort, and a lot of friendship, and a lot of kindness. And I think making sure that when you Do receive that type of investment and that time that you show gratitude for it. I think all of these individuals, I, at least I hope all of these individuals know how important that they've been to me and my journey, and continue to be, and they're still lifelong friends and I still am in contact with all of them. That's special and that's a gift and it's not to be taken for granted.

Carrie: 1:05:55

Yeah. And I think that's such a great example of, when students, particularly students in business, just talking about growing as a young professional, we talk about networking. And that can sound like such a gross thing, but what you just described important people in your network, right? And it's not that you, went after it in a, I need to get to know this person for my personal benefit and That reason only it's networking is really your relationship building. And a lot of that can just be a very natural thing. I mean, you do have to be intentional about building the relationship and be genuine in doing that, but that's really such a natural example of networking.

Jenni Rebecca: 1:06:37

Yeah. And I think. You know, going back to career path, I had joked earlier that people thought I was a good fundraiser and I never understood why. Now I would say I'm a pretty darn good fundraiser, but for a long time, I'm like, why do people say this about me? And it's funny, as you just said that, I'm realizing, oh, that's why people say that about me, is that, because I was always, intentional about building relationships, and that probably was obvious. I loved identifying, I mentioned that artist speakeasy, that artist show and tell, and where we would like bring different artists together to talk about their work. And I remember kind of thinking of it as artist matchmaking and like These artists would have some similar thread to their work, I would try to put them together in the room and kind of see what happens. And I don't think I ever like made this known or made it explicit, but the hope was that maybe there would be some sort of spark and there might be some collaboration out of that. And sure enough, there were a lot.

Carrie: 1:07:37

Of course. Of course.

Jenni Rebecca: 1:07:39

And it was so fun. And it was fun to see, you know, the recognition and appreciation, of each other's work. And I would say that's another piece of advice that, that I would offer is like, find what everyone does well, and appreciate what everyone does well, because everyone does something well. And so the question is, what is that? And then celebrate it and make that celebration known. Yeah. Because, life's too short, and, we all take ourselves too seriously, and, just taking the moment to, show appreciation for those little things, whether it be in the capacity of an arts career or whether it just be as a human, I think that's a good lesson that I've naturally done that most of my life, but I think I wish, would have been more intentional about it earlier.

Carrie: 1:08:27

Yeah, I think recognizing that it's sometimes it's easier to see that in someone else than to see it in yourself necessarily and say, Oh, I could have used that in some other ways that I just wasn't, you know, recognizing like, this is a strength that I have. Because a lot of times when we're looking, particularly as a student, you know, and we're looking at strengths, a lot of times it's through an academic lens. Yeah, I'm good at math. I'm good at science. I'm good at writing. Or in the arts, you know, I'm a great dancer. I'm great on stage. And those are kind of these skills that we grow up hearing about where a huge one is relationship building. And that's not necessarily in school, you know, they're not like, okay, well, you know, who's a good relationship builder and what are all the career paths...

Jenni Rebecca: 1:09:15

you know, that's so interesting that you're right.

Carrie: 1:09:18

But it's huge. Yeah, it's huge.

Jenni Rebecca: 1:09:20

No, absolutely. Or even, I think another sort of thing that sort of falls into that category is like program design, Designing how programs work, especially in the non profit space, where you're really thinking about, and I'm going to, about to use technical language, like in a logic model, in a theory of change, you have all the things that you're doing, your outputs, but they lead to outcomes and figuring out whether it be in the social service space, or in the art space, or in the education space, all of those things are really important to think through. I mean, I'm sure there are program design classes, but I can't envision anything like that, that I encountered in the capacity of my formal education. And It's so interesting and honestly, so fun. It's one of the things that I've enjoyed most of my nonprofit career is like really thinking about what are we trying to achieve here? That strategy, the strategic planning. Yeah. I mean, I guess, you know, that is a field so to speak. And I think that's important. Oftentimes it's swept up into this broad umbrella of consulting. But I wish people would recognize those skills earlier because they're so valuable. One other thing is that, especially if you're In a very sort of serious arts track: I think we can get a very sort of tunnel vision about what success looks like. We can forget what success as a human looks like. I wish that I had thought about those things separately, earlier. I think that we can sometimes lose sight of taking the opportunities of taking the time of building the relationships of celebrating the wins as they come and celebrating just the experience and the journey, because we are so driven and it's such hard work, I mean, to be, if you're in a performance track, for example, I mean, to actually make it, you have to be absolutely focused and disciplined and whatnot. And it's wonderful for those that can do it, but it's so few of us that like for us to really have it driven home very early that like, just make sure that you're happy, make sure that this is truly feeding your soul and not just something you think you need to do. That it's filling all of those needs that you have. It took me a little longer than I would have liked to have had those realizations.

Carrie: 1:11:47

Same. Yeah. Yeah. That's fantastic advice. That is absolutely. And really, I know we just talked about it in the context of the arts, but really you can put that in any context.

Jenni Rebecca: 1:11:57

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Carrie: 1:12:00

Well, Jenni Rebecca, thank you so much for joining us today. I really enjoyed this conversation and I really appreciate you sharing so many pieces of your story with us and telling us about your journey and all of the fantastic advice that you have. Thank you so much.

Jenni Rebecca: 1:12:16

Well, thank you, Carrie. It's been a real pleasure and I appreciate you reaching out and your questions are fantastic and have forced me to really reflect on some of these things and I appreciate that.

Carrie: 1:12:28

Thank you.

1:12:30

Do you know someone I should interview? Please DM me on Instagram@pathsinprogresspodcast and let me know who I should talk to. I would love to hear about how these stories are impacting your journey. Please follow Paths in Progress wherever you download your podcasts and leave a review to let me know what you think. You can also follow us on Facebook and LinkedIn at Paths in Progress Podcast. Our music is by John Grimmett and the artwork is by Edgar Alanis. Thanks again for joining me today.