After considering majors in Architecture, Interior Design, and PR/Marketing, Amanda decided to move into Speech Communications because she knew she wanted to work with people. International experiences had an impact on her life and created a desire within her to learn more about other cultures and work cross-culturally in her career pursuits. Amanda’s path through different parts of the country and work in student Christian ministry and non-profit community organizations led her to the meaningful work does with refugees and immigrant families. Amanda’s story is one that illustrates how each experience along our path can lead us to what we are meant to do with our lives.
After considering majors in Architecture, Interior Design, and PR/Marketing, Amanda decided to move into Speech Communications because she knew she wanted to work with people. International experiences had an impact on her life and created a desire within her to learn more about other cultures and work cross-culturally in her career pursuits. Amanda’s path through different parts of the country and work in student Christian ministry and non-profit community organizations led her to the meaningful work does with refugees and immigrant families. Amanda’s story is one that illustrates how each experience along our path can lead us to what we are meant to do with our lives.
Thank you for joining us today on Paths in Progress. I'm your host, Carrie Young. On this podcast, people in a variety of career fields, talk about their journey from choosing their college, deciding which majors and minors to pursue, their first jobs out of college, and all of the hurdles, detours and victories along their path through today. Our goal is to help students hear about a variety of exciting opportunities out there and understand what day-to-day life is like in these careers. I hope you enjoy and learn from our story today. Thanks for listening.
Carrie:Hi everyone. Thanks for joining us today. We are here today with Amanda, who is a licensed independent social worker. She works in counseling at a federally qualified health center. She specializes in working with refugee and immigrant mental health. She has an undergraduate degree, which is a bachelor of arts. She had a double major in speech communications and comparative religion from Miami University in Ohio. She has two master's degrees. One is in biblical studies in spiritual formation from Wheaton, and she also has a Master's of Social work from Ohio State. Amanda, thanks so much for being with us today.
Amanda:Oh, thanks Carrie, for having me.
Carrie:You've had quite a journey, an educational journey, obviously, just with that list. So can you take us back to your high school days and tell us a little bit about what you were thinking back then as you were looking for colleges and kind of thinking about what you wanted your education and career path to be?
Amanda:Yeah, absolutely. So actually in high school, I really loved art. And I took like all the advanced art classes you could take and I really thought I would do something in either architecture or interior design. My, oh wow. My dad actually taught like engineering and design and drawing. He was a teacher and then he also owned a landscaping business, so I would work with him in the summers. I really enjoyed that. I enjoyed like kind of creating. I would draw like buildings and houses and be excited about creating that. Yeah. I don't remember who it was, if it was like parents or teachers. But I remember someone saying, well, with architecture there's a ton of math. I remember that kind of like squashing that desire a little bit to be like, oh, well I'm not really that good at math, so maybe I shouldn't do that. So it kind of steered me away.
Carrie:I've interviewed a couple of architects and we had a little chat about the math thing. Yeah. One of them really encouraged students to not let that piece intimidate them because like, yes, there is math, but programs are different, you know, as far as what they actually require. Also in the architecture space, not everybody practices architecture the same or has the same kind of role in that field. Yep. So you can always kind of go in a direction where you don't have to use the math as much. Yeah. There's all these different roles in architecture firms and companies that do this work. I just wanna throw that in that I know a lot of people are deterred by that. Yeah. That's a real thing. So, you know, just if students are listening and have an interest in that, like try to dig deeper in the curriculum of the schools you're looking at, talk to a professor in the program. You know, there may be schools that emphasize that more heavily than others, but, there are options out there where it's not as scary as you may think it is or is what other people are telling you it is.
Amanda:And looking back like, you know, you know so much more as an adult than you do as like a teenager in terms of processing that, but I kind of wish. It would've been communicated like, actually there is a lot of math, but that's something you can work on. Or kind of even understanding a little bit more of what does that mean? You know, what type of math is it? Yeah. Now what I know about a growth mindset versus a fixed mindset, like yeah, I, I wish that I would've explored that more, or even if, like I mentioned that someone would've just been like, Hey, there might be a lot of math, but let's get together with an architect and learn, like, kind of shadow someone and see what it's like. You know? And I even wonder like, would someone have said that to me if I were a male? You know, just kind of that discouragement Yeah. Of like, well, maybe you shouldn't do that because of the math. But instead, maybe someone could have said like, Hey, I know that math is more challenging. Let's see what we can do to work on that. If this is really something you wanna do, like you can get better at this, or like what you just said. Yeah, maybe there's ways where you don't have to focus on that part as much and can still do the parts that are really enjoyable. But in every job, right, there's gonna be things that you have to learn and that are more challenging. I don't know how that would've shaped me if I hadn't just kind of given up so quickly. But that season of my life I was like, you know, I'm not good at math, so I probably need to choose something else. So that's where I decided, interior design. I still like to design and put things together. And so that was like what I was thinking I would major in, up until my senior year of high school when my parents decided to redo their family room, and get new furniture and redesign it. So, I was thinking, this will be perfect. I can help them with this and kind of try out this interior design desire. I went with them to the different stores and helped them pick things out. But I remember hating it, like I I wanted to just pick out what I wanted and they had all these opinions and it was not at all what I would've chosen. And so that like client side of it, I was like, oh, this might not be good. I don't get to just pick what I think looks good. I have to kind of defer to what, you know, who in that case, my parents. But, you know, thinking about a career would be like my client, what they would want. And at that time I was like, I don't have the patience for that That was like my senior year of high school and I was like, oh no, what am I gonna do? I think I just generally then was thinking, well, I still like to be creative, so maybe something in like public relations and marketing. So that was kind of what I initially enrolled at Miami as. So I was public relations major with a minor in marketing. And I just, I didn't know really what the options were. That was something I could kind of understand. Felt like it was a little bit of advertising and still kind of using that creative approach. Yeah. And so I got into my classes and there were parts of it I did really enjoy, but I was still just not necessarily feeling like this is exactly what I wanted to do. You know, how you, as you get into classes and the major and learning more about what it really is, I just remember thinking, I don't really think I wanna do this. Yeah.
Carrie:It's good to listen to that, right? Because I think sometimes people get in and feel like, well, I'll just keep going because I feel like I should, or I'll just keep going cuz I already started it and I don't wanna start something else. If you're feeling that, you know, explore that and you're thinking and listen to yourself, talk to somebody about it, journal about it, whatever it is you need to do to like think through it and process it. Mm-hmm. but that's such a good thing to listen to because that's your time to switch gears and find something else. You know, that's a great time to do it instead of sticking with something when you kind of know deep down that it's not the right thing.
Amanda:Right? Yeah, absolutely. You know, looking back, I don't remember who I talked to. I'm sure it was probably other peers, and I can't remember if it was a professor or Like a career advisor to check in on like what are the other options. But somehow I found the speech communication department, and that was geared a little bit more with like a focus on interpersonal communication. And so it kind of ended up a little bit more in terms of what you would think would be like management or even just also a little sociology, like learning how to work with people. At Miami you either had to have a minor or a double major and I had gotten to the point where I was really interested in learning about other cultures and other faiths. And so I remember thinking like, okay, I need something like practical that I can get a job with. So that's the speech communication. And then thinking, I'm paying all this money to learn and go to school. Why don't I take some classes to things that I really enjoy learning about? And so that was where I decided on the comparative religion, like, I wanna take some classes that I just wanna learn about. So that was kind of how that combination started.
Carrie:So as you were deciding to seek this double major, did you have any specific like career path ideas in mind or you were just gonna kind of see as you went along, if you came across something in a course?
Amanda:Yeah, that's a great question. So, and again, I don't remember when I decided on this switch. I think I did finish that first year with PR and marketing. And that summer in between freshman and sophomore year, I took a mission trip to Zambia, which is a country in Africa. It really shaped me in terms of just my desire to really work with people. Like I love just getting to know people, and learning about other cultures and even just sitting with people and listening to them and being an encouragement and a support to them. And so I think that may have been a catalyst for shaping, like, Hey, I think I wanna kind of work more directly with people and what's a way that I can do that? So I don't even know if I fully understood what a speech communication degree would allow me to do. I think I just felt like it might be more people-centered. Kind of the other significant piece that shaped my first job outta college. So I mentioned that, you know, I had that experience in Zambia and between my freshman and sophomore year of college. But then the next two summers I actually worked for a camp as a counselor, up in Michigan. And so I was working with junior and senior high students at this camp, and I really loved it. Again, just that being with people, encouraging them, mentoring them, but I also really liked working with middle school and high school students. And I think that was what that trajectory of a ministry, okay. Like I should go into ministry. And when I say ministry, I mean like Christian ministry, encouraging people in their spiritual faith, but also there are components of just overall, emotional wellbeing in the midst of that. Yeah, so I was thinking then well, maybe I should get a job as like a youth pastor at a church. So that was kind of what I was looking for at that time. So my first job outta college was a junior high youth minister at a church in Memphis. The reason for Memphis was I was seriously dating my boyfriend at the time who is now my husband, and he was heading to the Mississippi Delta to do a program called Teach for America. And I remember standing outside our house in college and saying like, I am not following you to Mississippi. we are not engaged, you know, I am not ready to be married. I was like, you can go there, that's fine, but I am not going there. But then, kind of through some random events a friend of mine knew and someone else who was moving from South Carolina to Memphis to be a youth pastor, and he was looking to build up staff. So I was like, okay, Memphis isn't that far from Mississippi. Like, maybe I should try an interview. Go meet with this pastor, see what I think. And so that was how that connection happened and why I landed on Memphis was to be closer to a boy. But still, I was very adamant that I still wanted to do something I wanted to do. So yeah, that was very important to me.
Carrie:Yeah. As it should be. Yes. Because you just never know, right? You never know what's gonna happen in life in general, but also in relationships. It's important to make sure you have a reason and you have a purpose for yourself.
Amanda:Right? Absolutely.
Carrie:So how long were you there?
Amanda:So, I was there just a year and it was definitely some culture shock. You know, I grew up in Ohio, went to college in Ohio and had some experiences traveling abroad. I mentioned Zambia. I had also traveled, my senior year of high school to Hong Kong and China. Living in another culture was, it was very shocking to my system. And now what I know about cultural adjustment and listening and learning would've helped me so much then. But it was a hard first year, and I think even just that first year outta college can be really challenging too. I mean, it's the first year you're not being directed with like classwork and studying and tests and papers.
Carrie:And your resources aren't there, right? Yeah, exactly. You can't just like walk to a building a block away and get a resource you need.
Amanda:Exactly.
Carrie:Just, you have to figure it out on your own.
Amanda:So it was culture shock, just being like, okay, I'm working now, not in school and the southern culture, you know, versus Midwestern culture. But by the end of that year, I was really enjoying it. However, we did get married that summer, so a year after graduation, and he still had another year with Teach for America. In Mississippi and then the church I was working at really wanted whoever was in the role, I had to be living in Memphis, because it was so relational and just spending time with the students and families. So I wasn't able to keep that job after we got married. So I ended up moving to Mississippi. Ironically, after declaring I wouldn't. So there were three churches, small town, Mississippi, and there were three churches that came together and said, we wanna hire a youth pastor. One church didn't have the resources to hire a youth pastor, so these three churches came together and said, we wanna hire a youth pastor. It was one of the churches that my husband had been attending, so that was kind of how I got connected and applied for the job. So my second year at a college, I was a youth pastor for three churches. Now one part of this is these three churches are all white churches. And I bring that up because, there is segregation everywhere in our country. Right. But yeah, in small town, rural Mississippi, you really see kind of that stark contrast and divide. In this town, there were two schools. One was the public school and one was the private Christian school. And the private Christian school developed in the 1970s. I don't remember the specific date, but it was when desegregation happened. So it was basically a form for white people to still segregate, right? Like, well, we'll just create our own private school. So truly, the public school was where my husband was teaching was 99% African-American. The churches now that I'm working with are, I wanna say a hundred percent white. That might not be fully accurate, but from what I remember, it was at least majority white, like over 90% white. And I had also really learned about myself that I loved working with different cultures. I'd already kind of known that about myself. Having that experience my senior year of high school going to Hong Kong and China. I'd had a film class my senior year of high school and we watched this film. I still remember how impacting it was and it was on South Africa and apartheid and that was the first time I had really learned about that. And that was even what kind of led me to wanting to take that trip to Zambia in between my freshman and sophomore year of college. I'd done some things in college to engage with other cultures or to be continue learning about how to interact with other cultures. On that mission trip to Zambia, it was a four week trip, but our first week, our team of seven people, four of us were white and three were African-American. And the person who was kind of doing our training was also African-American. And we met at a historically black college in Memphis, ironically, was where our training was. Oh wow. And we did a ton of work together. The terminology used then would've been racial reconciliation. And so really understanding race and the divide that that causes. We read this book called Breaking Down Walls, and it was written by a white pastor and a black pastor and just things they did. So we really did a lot with just this seven person team to really address racism, and learn how to work together. So anyway, I had been on that journey already and now I'm in Mississippi working for these three white churches, and my husband is teaching at the predominantly black school. So it was just a lot to kind of take in, you know, as a 23 year old as well, and trying to learn how to navigate this. Not to say it only exists in that space in Mississippi, like that is in many places in the country.
Carrie:So as you were going through that experience, I mean, obviously you were thinking, this is not what I wanna do for the rest of my life, as you were already having some, some concerns about that. So what were you thinking about in that space as far as like where you wanted to go after that and how you wanted to change that for yourself?
Amanda:Yeah. You know, I think, for that year, We knew that it was at least gonna be one year, right? The program for my husband was two years, and there was an option to extend it for a year, but it was hard for me personally just to live in rural Mississippi. But my husband really loved what he was doing and the things he was able to do. When we were kind of exploring what was next, we did really want a diverse city. We wanted options for grad school and options for jobs. And so that was how we then decided on going to Chicago. So at the end of that year, we ended up going to Chicago. And then backing up that year, I think we thought like, well, let's try and do some things to educate white people and to see how we can kind of encourage, you know, using that terminology of that book I read like the breaking down walls. And you know, it was a little naive to think what, you know, years and years of
Carrie:Well, and just to tell people this was like 20 years ago, right? This wasn't five years ago. Just so people can put it in context. So that's a little different context than it has been in the last few years. Right.
Amanda:Yep. Yeah. Absolutely. And that, you know, wasn't the only thing we did in that space. But we did try to use kind of that platform in our roles of where we were each working to bring that awareness. But definitely got some backlash for things that we did from the white community. And so it was, it was really difficult. It was a difficult year for sure. Yeah. So that was kind of what led us to Chicago and to exploring jobs there.
Carrie:Did you start job hunting before you moved? Just a secure thing in advance?
Amanda:We did. Yes. My husband, probably more so than me, is very very practical And, was definitely, you know, like we are not moving unless we have jobs. I think at that time, like I was still kind of on this ministry path, right? Thinking that was where I wanted to be. And again, I think we had learned like we have this desire to work in this field of racial reconciliation. I would change that term now to more like racial justice, or racial restoration, but again, using the language yeah of 20 years ago. And so ironically we connected with the ministry of the authors of that book that I had read between my freshman and sophomore year of college. The breaking down walls there, that ministry that those two men established was in Chicago. So we were like, well, let's start there, because that was just what we knew. Right. And yeah, I mean, even at that time, right, you could do internet searches. I think we were doing that then, but I, it was different than for how you kind of found spaces and jobs. So we met with them. This ministry had a school. Cuz my husband was still interested in teaching and they also, had a need for a communications person in the ministry side of things. So that was what we ended up doing. So we moved to Chicago and we both worked for this ministry for a year. And I feel like it's so funny to look back like, oh my goodness, I only had jobs for a year, my first three years out of college.
Carrie:Yeah. Well, and sometimes though, I mean, that's the time you're figuring things out, right? A lot of people are moving during that time. If you, that period of your life is where most people have the most freedom, right? Like you're not necessarily tied to a mortgage or kids yet, or other things that you do have the freedom to be like, you know what? I wanna live in a different place, so let's go over here.
Amanda:Yep. Absolutely. So I'm finally like in a job with like my degree right? of speech communication. Yeah. I'm ironically doing like PR and marketing stuff and sure enough I did not enjoy it. I didn't like being behind a computer so much and I don't know, it just, I really wanted to be like working more directly with people. So that was kind of what led me to only be there for a year was the role itself was just maybe not what I wanted to do.
Carrie:So how did you start exploring what you did wanna do?
Amanda:Yeah, so this is kind of then where my social work journey begins. I think I was still eager to work just in the community we were living in and we were living on the west side of Chicago. Where we were living there was definitely some socioeconomic and health needs and just support, overall support systems, that were lacking in the community. So I had somehow got connected with an organization and I don't remember how I heard about it. I don't know if it was just through talking to people or, you know, when you're in a field and you're looking, again, maybe it was the internet, but I think it might have been through just connections and talking to people. Found out about our program in our neighborhood where we were living, that was working with at risk mothers who had risk factors for potential abuse or neglect for children. So it was a program to provide support. It was a prevention program. Not to say that these women would've abused or neglected their children, but there was just certain risk factors that research had shown could lend toward that behavior. So it was a program to really work with young mothers, to provide support. It was really, like a mentoring program, kind of assessing their needs, you know, what support could we, as case workers give, what physical resources did they need? So we did some one-on-one home visits for families and then also provided some weekly groups as well, where they could get support from peers and other mothers of young kids.
Carrie:Was that the kind of thing, did you have like on the job training for that? Yes. Just as an outsider listening, it's like, well, how did you know how to do that? So, right. Is that something they trained you to do?
Amanda:So looking back and now what I know about social work and having a social work degree, I'm like, I can't believe they let me do that. So, I am a little shocked. I had already kinda had a lot of work with people and mentoring and providing support. Right. So I think I'd had that experience of at least knowing how to do that. But yeah. Then there were other staff who had been doing it longer who I would ask a lot of questions. The person that became my boss, who actually is still one of my good friends, she was a social worker, so super helpful to like, talk to her. She did a ton of training with me, and provided a lot of insight and support too. It is interesting to look back and know like, wow, how did I get that job?
Carrie:So how long did you do that?
Amanda:So I was there for a couple years, because at the same time I did decide to go back for my masters, and that's where I went to Wheaton College to get that spiritual formation and biblical studies masters. Again, still thinking like this ministry pathway was where I was heading. So kind of both were happening at the same time. Right. I'd kind of gotten into a social work field, but I still don't even know if I had the language for calling it that yet. And so still feeling like well ministry's the path forward to be able to work with people and provide support, both physical and emotional support. And so as I was at Wheaton, I learned about an organization out there closer to where my school was working with refugees and immigrants. Found out about a role there that I had decided to apply for thinking, well, I'm going out here for school. Maybe I should switch to working out here as well. And then given my desire to work with just lots of different cultures. I'd really enjoyed that, that was kind of what caused the shift there.
Carrie:Were you working full-time while you were going to school? How did you balance that?
Amanda:Yeah, so I was working part-time, so part-time work and part-time school. And then we didn't have children at the time too, so it was definitely a little bit more manageable.
Carrie:I think there's a lot of people who want to go into ministry, so they go and get like, whatever degree. Right. They just think of it doesn't matter what degree I have. Cause I want to go into ministry. Which in some cases that's okay. Right. But I don't want people to discount the value of seeking out a professional degree where you can utilize that skill as a resource for people who needed, right. There's so many skilled degrees that are also needed in ministry. Whether that's social work, you know, like you're a good example, whether that's counseling, whether that's some kind of medical degree, nursing, something where you can help in that capacity, whether it's a law, I mean, gosh, refugees and immigrants, how much can they utilize lawyers? Right. There's so many professional degrees out there where you can really contribute significantly in ministry. So I think it's important for students to think about that too. You can bring an extra skill to the table and be able to contribute even more.
Amanda:You're absolutely right. So I think when I transitioned into that role, you know, working with young mothers, in what Is more of a social work capacity. Again, not really fully understanding that terminology at the time. I realized I liked that a lot better. I liked working more in, it was a nonprofit organization, so I, it had worked with churches and then I had worked now in this nonprofit world, or maybe like a community organization. And I just found that that was a better fit for me personally. So that was kind of why that shift happened for me. And at that time I, I still felt like my degree was helpful and enough, and I still, you know, it was great learning, a great experience. But then as I transitioned to my new role now working with an organization with refugees and immigrants, I was the youth services director. So still kind of that youth component of middle school, high school, and this now also included elementary, but was working with newly arriving refugees coming into the country, helping them get into schools, enrolled in schools, navigate that system, and then providing support and mentorship groups for students as well. That is when I first learned kind of more about social work specifically and maybe the need for that degree.
Carrie:So, because you were doing school part-time, did that take you a little bit longer to get through that degree?
Amanda:So it ended up being three years for that degree instead of two years.
Carrie:And what do you feel like you took from that degree in the work that you were doing?
Amanda:That is a really good question.
Carrie:There's all of this conversation going on now about whether or not higher education is worth it, right? And so a lot of times parents and students are looking at degrees saying, well, what am I gonna get from that? Yep. How is that gonna help me? You know? And obviously there's a whole separate conversation about just being educated Yep. In general, like being a lifelong learner Yes. And educating yourself and to become a better human. So that's obviously a huge part of it. But for you, looking back on it with your journey, what do you feel like you took from that specific degree?
Amanda:I will say, and this is just me personally, because my career path changed, right? Like when I first signed up for that degree, and then how I shifted in the midst of it because of my work, that degree specifically. Is not necessary for my work now. And looking back, did I need to spend this money for this degree? Absolutely not. When I did make that transition, which I know we'll get into of deciding to go back for my master's of social work, I had that tension of like, I already have a master's, but it doesn't allow me to do the work that I wanna move into. Yeah. But I would say personally, like my personal growth and my own faith journey that occurred because of that degree was really valuable and helpful. But that, I realize when I say that, that's like a privilege, right? To be able to get a degree for your personal growth. So I know that that's not always the case, and I think there's other ways to have that personal growth. But I think that would be like where that helped me a lot even, you know, I've talked about a lot about how I started learning about other cultures and I was just drawn towards that, like learning and listening and understanding different ways of living. And I would say that degree helped me to understand different ways of living out a Christian faith that I had not experienced yet. So I think in that sense, I guess it did and does help me even now to understand there is different ways of living out your faith and your spiritual journey even no matter what spiritual background you have. So I guess in that sense, there is that underlying current for me as I continue to work with people from all types of backgrounds.
Carrie:Yeah. So you said you were in that position, for about four years. Was that the last position you had in Chicago or did you do something else?
Amanda:Yep. So what happened then, at the end of that time, and let me say, I loved this job. I loved the organization, I loved the work I was doing. I would sit with these refugee families who would tell me their stories of atrocity and persecution and loss and fear, and I was able to empathize with them and sit with them and try and help them adjust to life here in the United States, but I felt so ill-equipped to help them heal from that trauma. On our staff, we had a few different people who actually, all of them were also from all different countries. And there was one man I connected with in particular, and he was a counselor. So we had a counseling center at our resettlement agency, so that would provide counseling services to refugees and immigrants. And so I remember talking with him about his journey and his degree and he was the one who said, you should go back and get your social work degree to be able to do this work for counseling, for refugees and immigrants. Like you could do social work or counseling, right? There's a separate counseling degree. Yeah. But he specifically encouraged me to do social work over counseling. And again, this is just my own story. It's not a slight to a counseling degree. But given that the type of counseling I wanted to do that needed more of a systems approach, right? So there's all these different things going on for refugees and immigrants that. I think there's absolutely a place for kind of the individual counseling and working with that psychology there, but, Also just seeing the bigger systems at play and how they impact our own individual mental health and how we need to interact with those. So that was a piece where, yeah, social work provides a little bit more of that. At least at that time, and at least in Illinois, this could be different in different states and it might even be different now. Medicaid would not be billed if you had a counseling degree. You could only bill Medicaid if you had a social work degree. So that was the other reason. Oh wow. Encouraged me Okay. To get social work. Because a lot of our clients mm-hmm. had Medicaid and so be being able to access services, social work had a broader reach than what a counseling degree was, at least, again, at that time in that state.
Carrie:That's such an important thing. What high school student going in or even college student going into that field is gonna know that. Right, right. yeah. That's such an important thing to think about.
Amanda:And I wouldn't have known that either if I hadn't been around him and learning about his work and why he chose social work over counseling. It was super helpful just to be able to have those experiences and personal connections and conversations.
Carrie:So for students listening who are thinking, you know, I'm really interested in helping refugee families and immigrants in this kind of capacity, is a resettlement agency, is that the type of organization students should maybe think about looking into? Or can you volunteer in some capacity in college? Just around that kind of resettlement agency, that term or that title? Can you just describe a little bit what that landscape looks like? Are they in pretty much every major city? What does that look like?
Amanda:Yeah, that's a really good question. So, because, the organization where I worked in Wheaton, which is a suburb of Chicago, we were right next to Wheaton College's campus. We had a ton of college student volunteers and interns. So I really heavily relied on volunteers. So actually during my time there, I probably worked with around 200 refugee and immigrant students and 75 volunteers, through my four years there. And then I ended up, overseeing five interns as well. And they were so helpful for all of our programming. And we had a lot of tutoring clubs and mentorship clubs. Or you could even just work with individual refugee families too, just providing support. We had welcome teams as well, so sometimes that would be a group of college students or it might be like an intermixed group of families in the community, you know, or through churches or other organizations. So yeah, there's absolutely, volunteering is a great way, I feel like, to kind of get some of that exposure or even looking into some of those internship opportunities. There are different organizations throughout the US, just even Googling like refugee resettlement in your city and, you know, putting in your city's name. And usually those agencies would come up.
Carrie:Are a lot of them like affiliated with churches and faith-based organizations? Are there ones that are affiliated with government agencies, or is there both?
Amanda:Yes. Like the refugee resettlement agency itself? Yeah. Okay. Yep. That's a good question. So there are 10 agencies that do refugee resettlement in the United States. So 10 agencies that have a contract with the Department of State to resettle refugees. And out of that 10, then there are different, Maybe names or like offshoots, but there's like an overseeing branch of the organization, if that makes sense. And yes, I mean, I guess a lot do have a faith component, but that looks very different based on the agency. And then a lot are also like very open to working across faiths too. Or even within, like there's one of those 10 is called Church World Service and that organization is very much like, works with all different faith denominations of Christianity, right? Someone is called like Jewish Family Services. That's a component there too. I, I'd have to like look and see what all the different names of them are. And I think too, like I would do a lot of training for volunteers and the organization I was working for, was, you know, deemed a Christian organization. But in my training for volunteers, I would be very clear that we are not trying to convert or to put a specific faith Right or religion on someone. And definitely not to access services, right. So it was very much like we care for people out of the model that we saw Jesus caring for people. Yeah. So to volunteer again, each organization might play out a little different locally, but for the most part, you should not need to be of a certain faith background to be a volunteer.
Carrie:Yeah. Okay.
Amanda:Near the end of the time there at this organization in Wheaton. For the past couple years, my husband and I had been on an adopt adoption journey, and so we had just adopted our first son and, my husband was also looking to transition jobs. He had been in business, during our time in Chicago and he had wanted to get back into education. So he had started interviewing, in Chicago, but then also found out about a school opening up in Columbus. So we had just become new parents and living in Chicago as new parents, and I was commuting out. We lived in the city, but I was commuting out to the suburbs. He was commuting up to the north side of the city. So it was just, it was a lot to learn how to do life in the city that we loved. But now mm-hmm. as parents. Columbus is my husband's hometown. So, we explored both options and I also visited some refugee resettlement agencies here in Columbus. And we felt like we might be able to still do our work that we were passionate about and be parents a little bit, I don't wanna say easier, but we felt like there might be a little bit more of a work slash parenting, you know, slash social balance in Columbus. Just the access to things was a little simpler and easier. And also we had never lived in the same state as our family, as adults. So I think we thought, well, maybe we should try living near family.
Carrie:Now that you have a child too, that makes you think differently about that.
Amanda:It does. So that was kind of what led to that. And I think we also thought like, well, If we don't like it, we can always come back to Chicago.
Carrie:That's a great thing to think about with so many life decisions. There's so much pressure when you make these decisions that like this is it and it's like a final decision and most of the time it's not. Right. Right. Most of the time, if you really wanted to go back to a different location or you really wanted to go back to a different field, you probably could find a way to do that, so. Right. We all put that pressure on ourselves though, right? That this is like, it is a big decision. I mean, not to downplay that it's huge decision to move, you know, far distances or change what you're doing. Yes. That's something that we're trying to learn to tell ourselves is, you know, we can always go back Uhhuh if we really, really wanted to. Yes. We can find a way to go back.
Amanda:Yeah, absolutely. And so I think that helped us make that decision. I mean, we still love Chicago, still visit often, like our kids kind of think of it as a second home cuz it's not super far, right. Yeah. But it was definitely like another adjustment, moving from a big city to a smaller city. So it definitely took some time to adjust, but here we are almost 13 years later or still in Columbus.
Carrie:Nice. So what did you find to do there?
Amanda:So, when we first moved here, I was basically trying to learn how to be a mom. So I ended up, wanting to be at home mostly with my son, just to connect and adapt to being a mom. And so I was looking for maybe a little less than part-time, and so connected with a refugee resettlement agency here and became an E S O L teacher, which is English to speakers of other languages. And it was just a few hours in the afternoons and I got connected with a high school student who watched my son during that time. So it was a way to still be connected in that space, but not be working a ton. So that was where I started out. And I mean, I wasn't crazy about the role itself, like teaching English was not necessarily my skillset, but for that season it was a really a good place to begin and start as we had just moved and as I was just adapting to motherhood.
Carrie:Yeah. And that's such an important point, is that sometimes in particular seasons of life we do something a little different or maybe that's not our ideal, but it's so helpful to help everything else at our life work at that time. Right, right. And that, that's okay. Yeah. It is okay to just be in a role that's not your ideal or not where you thought you would be or whatever it is for you mm-hmm. But like you said, you were still plugged into the space. It just was a little bit different for that season.
Amanda:Right. Yep, absolutely. So yeah, so I did that for a year and I feel like I'm going back to my, like, short-term jobs a little bit in that space. During the end of that year, It wasn't completely there yet, but, our church was a new church and our pastor had asked if I would be willing to help out with some overall administration things. But also we started something called a Compassion and Justice Ministry. And so that would, was basically like leading local outreach events. We ended up renting space in an apartment where our pastor office out of, but the apartment was very much heavily populated by refugees and immigrants. And so we wanted to have a space where we could provide services and support to that community. So I transitioned over to working with our church for a few years and helping to establish, some services for refugees and immigrants through our church, as well as other services too, to outreach in the community. And in that time also adopted our second son and then, had our third son biologically. So it was kind of a way that allowed me to have a flexible job and still being engaged in that work.
Carrie:Yeah. When you're asked by your church to help establish some services for families, is that something where you were kind of going back to the resettlement agency and thinking about how their services worked and using connections to organizations you're already aware of? Were you pulling from some of your previous work experience to kind of lead you with how to get that established? Yes. Or can you describe just a little bit about how you went about that?
Amanda:Yeah. Yes, absolutely. So I had definitely, you know, stayed connected with the organization where I had been teaching English. And then also the agency I worked for in Wheaton, they're national and so they had started the same organization here in Columbus. So I also got connected with them as well. So we definitely did a lot of partnering together, and worked with those organizations. And then, because I had established programs like tutoring and mentorship at my time in Wheaton, the Chicago area, I had those skills and resources to know how to get it started here in Columbus, too.
Carrie:Okay. So how long were you in that space where you were helping establish those services? And also you had three kids at home at that point? Can you talk a little bit about that period of time, cuz I think when we talk about seasons of life and needing to be more at home, especially with kids when they're little, when they're not yet in public school age. Right, right. How you went through that period of time and then when you knew you were kind of ready to move into a different type of space Yeah. Based on the age of your kids. Yeah.
Amanda:I will say it was a really hard season. So that season was like June, 2011 to December, 2014, you know, and so in that space we went from one kid previously, two, three kids, three and under. And at the time my husband was doing a very intense job. And I was part-time working for the church too. But, you know, the roles that I've done are not, But to this point, we're not been super lucrative. Right. It's not like I'm making you know? Yeah. These, you know, outrageous salaries or anything, which was absolutely okay. And we were able to do that, you know, given we had a dual income and my husband's job allowed for that. But that led to the cost of childcare for three kids, three and under is Oh yeah, so much. I would be paying more for childcare than I was for my job. Yeah. And so I was really trying to make it work, like doing some evenings or, you know, when my husband would be home or some weekend time or, you know, occasionally getting some friends support in the afternoons or, you know, having some sitters come. But I was really trying to piecemeal it together so that it would make it, I mean, I, I wanted to work, I wanted to be engaged in this, but also, you know, financially wanting to make sure that it was providing some level of income, not just, you know, overpaying for childcare too. But that said, it was really overwhelming and stressful and I was definitely getting burnt out. And I had started then counseling for myself that fall of, I guess it would've been summer, fall of 2014. I was talking to my counselor through that and I remember her saying like, you need to get back to work in some more set hours, right? and schedule. And I mentioned about that cost of childcare. But at that time my son, my oldest son had started kindergarten. And my younger two I think were getting ready where they could at least go to preschool for a little bit of time. And so I mentioned to her like, Hey, but the cost, you know, childcare and I'd be breaking even at that point. And she had said to me, like, for your own mental health, you need to get back to work. And that was really helpful for me to realize like, it's okay for me to wanna work, you know? I think I had had some stereotypes of like being at home and, you know, those have really like, broken down now where I realize that was an error in my own thinking and that was okay for me to pursue these career aspirations and still be a mom as well.
Carrie:Yeah, absolutely. I think there's a lot of guilt in there too sometimes, especially if you feel like you're missing something or it's difficult to muster energy to do something. It's just, yeah, there's a lot. There's a lot.
Amanda:Yes. Yep. So, in that space, when I'm feeling like I maybe need a little bit more of a consistent schedule and now meeting with this counselor telling me, you know, to get back into maybe, the sort of job that has a little bit more set schedule too. The organization that I'd worked for in Wheaton that was also here in Columbus, the person in the volunteer coordinator role was stepping down and asked if I would take his job. So, oh wow. Yeah, so it kind of happened a little organically and I said yes to that and, so kind of got back into that world again and really enjoyed it. Like, enjoyed training volunteers and helping people understand how to work cross culturally and really providing more support for refugee families. It was ama like when you can match a volunteer with a refugee family, like the support they get is so helpful. It's just like a guide, right. To understanding like culture and like how do you ride the bus and what are the fun things to do? Or like an English partner, let's practice English. Because there's case workers, but they have so many just things they need to do just to help people get a set up, that space for people just to build friendships and that community is so helpful. So I really enjoy doing that work when I transitioned back to it here in Columbus.
Carrie:So at what point did you decide that you really felt like it was time to pursue the Master's in Social Work?
Amanda:Yeah, so I mean, that's still kind of always been in the back of my mind, right? Like, okay, this will be great to have, but I was now, you know, have three kids and I'm in this job that I'm really enjoying. I also had the thought, you know, at some point I would actually love to be the director. If that would work out there or another organization. I would love to be in a more like senior management role at a refugee resettlement or immigration services organization. So that was kind of like in my mind what I was working towards. I had still thought about that Master's of social work, but was like, you know, I just really love my job and I think I'm good right now. But we at our office, at this refugee resettlement agency, I was there from January, 2015 to May, 2017. So in this space is a lot is going on in our country with perceptions of refugees and immigrants. And this is like mm-hmm. the whole Syrian crisis is going on. And there was a lot of ups and downs in perspective on refugees and, yeah I don't know how to get into all of that in this time span.
Carrie:Yeah. Well, and even at proactive movement was made to try to prevent a lot of people from coming into our country, right?
Amanda:Yeah. So my role really began to shift to a lot of helping people understand what is true and what is real about the refugee process. And really it also started to take on an advocacy role, with state and federal politics. So then obviously the election is going on as well. And, you know, Donald Trump is elected president and we had known his campaign rhetoric and very anti-refugee and immigrant sentiment. But, you know, when he was elected, I think we thought, well, maybe it was just campaign language, right? So kind of let's wait and see. So then June, January of 2017, our office, we. It was around lunchtime, we all sat and watched the inauguration speech. And it was during that speech that like, I just had a pit in my stomach and thought I'm gonna lose my job. Like we're gonna lose our jobs. And it was that month that I decided I need to start applying. And I was at the point the next year my kids, my two younger kids were going into kindergarten and I thought, it's either I go and get that Master's of social work now, or I'm never gonna do it. So it really was a turning point, like if I get into another job, I'm probably not gonna take the time to go and get my degree. Mm-hmm. I just felt like it was now or never. And also I wanted something to know what I was gonna be doing if I lost my job. So I applied for the program. And sure enough, a month later our office was told we would be closing because of the decimation of the refugee program that was happening because of that administration at the time. Mm. So, yeah, it was, it was really hard. It was definitely a lot of grief and loss and I still feel that even to this day, just that sadness over that loss.
Carrie:Yeah. Are things starting to resurface in that area or is there still a long ways to go to get things kind of back up and running?
Amanda:I would say both. Yeah. So I think definitely it is progressing. It's starting to rebuild. Our country is starting to welcome more refugees again, which means resettlement agencies are rebuilding staff. And at the same time, it is a long way to go. Rebuilding up staff, like all the staff that had all this knowledge and skillset, it's like retraining people with all those years of experience Yeah. That you've lost. And some have found their way back to it, you know, but also like incorporating new people, but then also restarting all these things that had been lost. So it's definitely in an intense season right now, but also there's hope too and progress in it. Yeah.
Carrie:Well, can you talk a little bit about the actual MSW degree. Because you were coming into that with a lot of experience. Mm-hmm. which, you know, there's probably people all over the place coming into those degrees, either already having experience in wanting the credential and, you know, extended professional training. But then there's probably also people coming in who have the interest, but maybe their extent is volunteer work or, you know, like a strong interest out of an undergrad program. So, mm-hmm. can you talk about like the coursework and the pieces of that experience that you really found valuable, obviously other than the licensing that you have with the work you're able to do, but also just what you learned from that in the experience of going through that degree program that's really helped you moving forward.
Amanda:So I'm in a unique phase of life when I did this right? I have three kids, like I have a goal for what I wanna use this degree for. So it was a really good program, but I also, you know, at that mindset and stage of my life, it was like a means to an end for me. But I really, I really enjoyed the pieces of it. I think that it did help that I had all this work experience so I could like more readily, practically apply some of the things I was learning. And the thing I will say that I really enjoy about a social work degree particularly is that it focuses on both the micro and the macro. So meaning like, it definitely gets into the details of like individual care for people, yet it also, and I think I said this a little before, but it just acknowledges the systems that shape, those individuals, right? And how we need to address Yeah. Those parts of things as well. And even just like from a practical perspective, as I'm now providing individual counseling, I look at some of the people I'm working with and hear their story and think, oh my gosh, if I could just change a couple of these systems for you, you wouldn't need to see me for mental health counseling. Like there's a direct correlation. Yeah. Between, you know, systems and how that impacts people at an individual level. So I really feel like a social work degree really gets into both of those pieces. And just the cultural components too, like just understanding culture, working with people from a variety of different backgrounds. And then you kind of can focus in a social work degree on like what area you wanna go into. So I chose a counseling focus because I knew I wanted to work with people who'd gone through trauma. And then I also chose to get my school-based licensing and that was like a, I don't wanna go back to school. Let me get every possible thing that I need. Yeah. Now. And I, you know, had that thought. Like I knew I had work with schools and refugees and immigrants, you know, in schools before I knew that could be a job option for me. And also being a mom was like, whoa, that could be cool to have like a school schedule, but you have to do a specific component in social work to get the school licensure. So I, here I am wanting like a school piece and a mental health piece in this social work role. And you have to do an internship as well. And so fortunately we have a program here in Columbus, through our children's hospital that has a school-based counseling program. So doing that internship Oh, wow. For a year and a half. In the midst of my program allowed me to get both of those components that I wanted to. And so I would say that internship was super helpful for my learning and engagement. So not to say classes weren't, like classes were good and you're learning a lot in the midst of that, too, but then that practical experience I was able to have through the internship and that support and supervision and training I got was very helpful.
Carrie:Yeah. Did you come out of that having a different vision for what you thought you wanted to do, or did it just kind of round it out some more? How did it change your perspective as far as how you wanted to contribute to that field moving forward?
Amanda:Yeah. No, I would say it was still pretty similar. I still have a desire to be involved in both, like the micro and the macro. Right. I like the combination of both. So right now I am doing mostly like the more micro individual counseling. And that's good. And I think it's okay because I feel like I'm still kind of building up how do I care for refugees and immigrants to the best of my ability. You know, like maybe the counseling approaches you learn in school or even that I learned through my internship might not always translate across cultures or you might need something different. Yeah. And so through the agency I'm at now, I feel like I've been able to more broadly explore different therapy models. And so I feel like it's been really helpful and I was hired at this organization to specifically focus on refugee and immigrant mental health. It had to shift a little bit when the pandemic happened, and I've opened up my schedule to other clients too. But now we're rebuilding that a little bit to provide that focus more so, and I still feel like I am learning and training in different approaches, so feel like this is a good space right now. But definitely at some point would like to maybe think through, how can I get back to also some macro pieces. And when I say macro, I mean like. You know, I liked the advocacy work or exploring how do we make certain systems better, or like management pieces too. So I think that will come, but I'm okay where I'm at right now as well.
Carrie:Yeah. Well, for students listening who are thinking that they really want to contribute and they wanna help refugee families or immigrants, with resettlement, if they're currently a student in college, do you have some recommendations, like, obviously we've talked about volunteering, but as far as courses or skills or experiences, do you have some recommendations for students of things that they should seek out in undergrad if they know that they already have this interest long term?
Amanda:Absolutely. One thing is like, in college didn't even know a social work degree really existed. One of my good friends actually got a social work degree, but I never really understood what that was. I think you can hear social work and think foster care, right? Like, I think that was like a perception that I had. And so I really. I didn't even know to ask. Right. But looking back, I would've loved to have known that what social work meant. And I think when I made that shift, you know, my sophomore year of college, I think that would've been the degree I would've done. Like, I would've probably gotten my bachelor's of social work. So I think just even knowing like, hey, I like working with people and I like working cross-culturally. Like what are some degrees I could consider? Like having had that conversation would've been really helpful and some guidance in that. Yeah. I don't always know where to seek that out though. Right. You know, it could be through peers or maybe it's like, you know, now it's like you're searching that online or talking to like a career counselor. I don't know how much I utilize that in college. As a college student, volunteering with an agency, if there is one near you, is a great way to kind of get some of that hands-on experience, meet staff, talk to them, and even see like, Hey, can I try out some of the individual, the case work stuff, you know? And are there some other agency things I could try and help with? Some of them have immigration legal services built into the organization. Like, could I also mm-hmm. help out there or maybe trying a couple different pathways within an agency could be helpful. I often joke that sometimes I wonder if I should have gotten my law degree instead of my social work degrees, but maybe that will be the third. So I still think about that because I see that like systemic piece, right? and I wanna be able to like legally be able to change some things. But at the same time, I think social workers can be involved in all aspects. You know, I think social workers should be, and they talk about that too, even in their code of contact, like being advocates and advocating for systems and laws as well. So I would like to get back to that a little bit more in my work than I am now. So that could also be like a possible there are organizations that do that as well. So that could be just searching too, in your area, immigration advocacy or maybe volunteering at an immigration law firm to get that side of it. Yeah, so there's a lot of options. And sometimes it is the trial and error, right? You try things and you still grow. Those experiences aren't wasted in any way, and then also you still are helping people in the midst of it, no matter what path you take. Right.
Carrie:Yeah. It goes back to that within all of these contexts, there's so many different roles that need to be filled to make everything work and to be able to help people. Right. So, you know, thinking about that whole system, whatever system it is that you're considering, there's a lot of different ways to be plugged into that with a lot of different types of skills and degrees.
Amanda:Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah, absolutely. And that was another reason, you know, I know I had that advice from that coworker way back when about getting social work over counseling, but for me that was something too. I knew I had a lot of interest and desires, so that degree specifically, as I was considering that or counseling, I decided on social work too, because of the options that it would allow me to do. Yeah.
Carrie:As you look back over your journey, do you have some big picture life advice for students, whether it's something related to your actual journey or just being a student in general and working through these different, career seasons of life. Is there any advice you'd like to offer them?
Amanda:Yeah. You know, as I look back, I think, you know, when I was growing up, the question was always like, what do you wanna be when you grow up? Right? It was all about like the job, you know? Yeah. Even like, what was your major? And maybe that's changed now. Maybe students don't get that as much anymore. But looking back, like I would've loved if someone would've explored with me or encourage me to do it on my own. I don't wanna put this on other people, that like, I didn't do this cuz someone didn't tell me. Right. But when you look back as an adult, as a student, you see things differently. Like I would've loved if someone had said like, Hey, let's do like some strengths assessments or even like the personality assessments that are out and like, let's really look at like, yeah, what are your strengths? What is your personality? And what might be some options there? And then kind of using that as a guide for like, Hey, let me explore some of those, or shadow or intern or even just talk to people. Like sometimes it could have just been like meeting with people in that field. And I feel like it's so easy to network now, right. To. Post something and be like, Hey, does anyone have a connection here? And again, maybe that's happening more often now. And if so, I think that's great. But I think just that focus on like the what do I wanna do? And shifting that to just more like, who am I? How am I wired? What do I need? What makes me come alive? And also knowing that in whatever you do, there's gonna be pieces of a job that you don't enjoy like that you're gonna have to work harder at too. But overall, like, here's how I want to contribute and here's how I'd like to use my strengths and skills in the world.
Carrie:Yeah. Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for being with us today, and thank you also for the work that you're doing. I know it's been a really difficult period of time Yeah. In our country's history with the work that you're doing. And it's so inspiring to hear the work that people are doing, that they're striving to build things back up and make things better and welcome fellow human beings into our country. Right. Yeah. And helping them feel welcome and be settled in their community. So it's such important work and I'm so thankful that you joined us today to talk about it.
Amanda:Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed it.
Carrie:Do you know someone I should interview? Please DM me on Instagram@pathsinprogresspodcast and let me know who I should talk to. I would love to hear about how these stories are impacting your journey. Please follow Paths in Progress wherever you download your podcasts and leave a review to let me know what you think. You can also follow us on Facebook and LinkedIn at Paths in Progress Podcast. Our music is by John Grimmett and the artwork is by Edgar Alanis. Thanks again for joining me today.